Author Topic: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?  (Read 185165 times)

Andy

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #575 on: August 14, 2015, 07:19:33 PM »
How do you know that they were telling the truth: in fact, how do you know there really were eye-witnesses at all? If Jesus was dead then they must have been lying, or the whole eye-witness stuff is propaganda, or if they really did see him then he clearly wasn't previously dead.
Obviously, you will regard these as the only options since you are bound by the assumption that supranatural events can't occur - since they contravene the laws of nature as we know them.

So basically, if god, why not?

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There is nothing in these claims that couldn't easily be fabricated - and this is a risk that you guys seem reluctant to take seriously, and presumably early Christians were not immune from human failings.
Which is why several of us have, over the months, worked our ways through the various oppositional explanations and shown why they are either impossible or nigh on so.

And then, as if by magic, a complete abondonemt of "if god, why not" as you're claiming there are impossible things based on, what was it, ah yes, the assumption that supranatural events can't occur.

You really are funny.

jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #576 on: August 14, 2015, 07:55:03 PM »
Which is why several of us have, over the months, worked our ways through the various oppositional explanations and shown why they are either impossible or nigh on so.

Why didn't you discount resurrection since it is essentially impossible?
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jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #577 on: August 14, 2015, 08:00:59 PM »
Exactly.  Unfortunately, rational discourse about the real World is all about probabilities and likelihoods. All this discussion we are having about evidence, eye witnesses, best explanations etc becomes meaningless if a god exists that interferes with the World.
Only if you regard the 'real World' as immune from the involvement of the supernatural creator.  A concept that is, in itself, all-but impossible if it was created.

Nope you just don't get it do you.  If there is a god that interferes then the World does not obey rules that can be analysed rationally.  God can override any of the apparent rules we discover with a wave of her metaphorical fingers.

Have you also thought about the possibility that, if God can raise a man from the dead, she can easily manufacture a fictional account and make people die for it.
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Gordon

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #578 on: August 14, 2015, 08:32:05 PM »
How do you know that they were telling the truth: in fact, how do you know there really were eye-witnesses at all? If Jesus was dead then they must have been lying, or the whole eye-witness stuff is propaganda, or if they really did see him then he clearly wasn't previously dead.
Obviously, you will regard these as the only options since you are bound by the assumption that supranatural events can't occur - since they contravene the laws of nature as we know them.

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If you go down the route of 'was dead - then seen' then you'll need more than a few unsupported and unattributed accounts: you'll need a method to show the supernatural evidence in a way that counters the risk of mistakes or lies.
Unfortunately, the equivalent can be said about scientific reportage, Gordon.  Over my liftime, there have been plenty of such mistakes or lies within the scientific community.  That doesn't invalidate science.

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There is nothing in these claims that couldn't easily be fabricated - and this is a risk that you guys seem reluctant to take seriously, and presumably early Christians were not immune from human failings.
Which is why several of us have, over the months, worked our ways through the various oppositional explanations and shown why they are either impossible or nigh on so.

1. I'm bound by the opinion that 'supranatural events can't occur' because there are no good reasons to think they do. There are, however, bad reasons to think this, and they seem to side-step other more everyday reasons like people making mistakes or making stuff up.

2. The thing about science is that should new evidence demand change, or if scientists make spurious claims, knowledge gets revised by any new evidence or by better science - so, and unlike religion, when it comes to science arguments from tradition or authority aren't set in tablets of stone and can be overturned.

3. You haven't worked your way 'through the various oppositional explanations and shown why they are either impossible or nigh on so' since you have studiously avoided explaining how you have resolved the risks of mistakes or lies in the NT accounts - you guys seem permanently stuck in the fallacies of arguments from authority and tradition.

Hope

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #579 on: August 14, 2015, 08:44:02 PM »
1. ... There are, however, bad reasons to think this, ...
And those would be? Try not to list the half-dozen examples you've given in the past and had shown to be unlikely.

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2. The thing about science is that should new evidence demand change, or if scientists make spurious claims, knowledge gets revised by any new evidence or by better science - so, and unlike religion, when it comes to science arguments from tradition or authority aren't set in tablets of stone and can be overturned.
As can religious beliefs and understandings, so ... ?

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3. You haven't worked your way 'through the various oppositional explanations and shown why they are either impossible or nigh on so' since you have studiously avoided explaining how you have resolved the risks of mistakes or lies in the NT accounts - you guys seem permanently stuck in the fallacies of arguments from authority and tradition.
Oddly enough I provided a very detailed explanation of why several alternative explanations of the Gospels stories, iirc as posited by your good self, were either impossible or highly unlikely, only a couple of weeks ago which you then tried to negotiate your way around without a great deal of success.
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jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #580 on: August 14, 2015, 09:03:04 PM »
I provided a very detailed explanation of why several alternative explanations of the Gospels stories, iirc as posited by your good self, were either impossible or highly unlikely

Why do you discount a "highly unlikely" explanation in favour of a totally incredible one?

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Hope

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #581 on: August 14, 2015, 09:39:52 PM »
Why do you discount a "highly unlikely" explanation in favour of a totally incredible one?
Why would I want to discount a perfectly acceptable explanation if reality is understood far more broadly than it seems to be by some here?
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Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #582 on: August 14, 2015, 09:42:01 PM »
Reality has to be understood by some methodology which allows you to do so - that's the very thing you can't provide.
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jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #583 on: August 14, 2015, 09:49:21 PM »
Why do you discount a "highly unlikely" explanation in favour of a totally incredible one?
Why would I want to discount a perfectly acceptable explanation if reality is understood far more broadly than it seems to be by some here?

How do you understand your broader reality without a means of assessing what things in it are true and what things are not?

This is the problem you have.  If there is a god that interferes in the World, all possibilities are equally valid and you can't discount anything in the way you say you have.
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Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #584 on: August 14, 2015, 09:59:07 PM »
How do you understand your broader reality without a means of assessing what things in it are true and what things are not?
And by what criteria, Hoppity, do you know that your alleged understanding of reality is broader than that of those others on here to which you referred earlier?

Clearly Jeremy and I are asking the same questions driving in the same direction, but no matter. It might slightly increase our chances of seeing you answer something for once.
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Gordon

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #585 on: August 14, 2015, 10:01:43 PM »
Oddly enough I provided a very detailed explanation of why several alternative explanations of the Gospels stories, iirc as posited by your good self, were either impossible or highly unlikely, only a couple of weeks ago which you then tried to negotiate your way around without a great deal of success.

Oddly enough I think you must have me mixed up with someone else then since I haven't proposed 'several alternative explanations of the Gospels stories': I made it quite plain that I think the supernatural stuff in the NT accounts is superstitious nonsense from more credulous times that has been contrived into a fictional tale so as to promote the Jesus myth.

You still haven't explained why my main concern that these NT tales may be propaganda (which is the only alternative I've been consistently suggesting) is 'impossible or highly unlikely' while, ironically, you favour the actual impossible nonsense of dead people not staying dead and, seemingly, you must also think that early Christians were immune from ordinary human failings.

So please don't suggest that I've been offering various permutations that you've easily dismissed: I haven't, and you haven't even tried to address my question regarding how you have meaningfully excluded the possibility that all the supernatural stuff in the NT is propaganda for Jesus.


Spud

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #586 on: August 15, 2015, 10:11:22 AM »
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You seem to be assuming that these NT accounts of Jesus being dead and then resurrected are necessarily true
Yes, I'm assuming that for the sake of argument. All you have said in your post (and Floo too) is about how a non-eyewitness can be sure it is true, but I am assuming that I (or you) am in the place of an eyewitness and I saw what they describe, and is it enough for me to be sure, if I was in their place.

Then, Spud, I'd say that you are far too easily pleased.
Not sure if you read correctly, Gordon. I said "is it enough for me to be sure, if I was in their place"- I was asking the question.

How do you know that they were telling the truth: in fact, how do you know there really were eye-witnesses at all? If Jesus was dead then they must have been lying, or the whole eye-witness stuff is propaganda,
There are plenty of indicators that the disciples did not fabricate the resurrection, and were not deluded. These have been shown many times here.
For example, lies about the resurrection would have been discredited by the authorities, just as lies about Jesus' miracles would
Ultimately though, it is the person ofJesus as presented in the Bible that convinces me that he rose. I know that his teaching is right, that I need a Saviour and that his death makes me right with God. The resurrection is part of message of the Bible, that God will make a new creation, starting with the resurrection of the messiah. (This probably means that one needs to believe in God in order to believe the resurrection.) And I believe it is incorrect to say that the gospel claims could easily be fabricated.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #587 on: August 15, 2015, 10:12:17 AM »
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You seem to be assuming that these NT accounts of Jesus being dead and then resurrected are necessarily true
Yes, I'm assuming that for the sake of argument. All you have said in your post (and Floo too) is about how a non-eyewitness can be sure it is true, but I am assuming that I (or you) am in the place of an eyewitness and I saw what they describe, and is it enough for me to be sure, if I was in their place.

Then, Spud, I'd say that you are far too easily pleased.
Not sure if you read correctly, Gordon. I said "is it enough for me to be sure, if I was in their place"- I was asking the question.

How do you know that they were telling the truth: in fact, how do you know there really were eye-witnesses at all? If Jesus was dead then they must have been lying, or the whole eye-witness stuff is propaganda,
There are plenty of indicators that the disciples did not fabricate the resurrection, and were not deluded. These have been shown many times here.
For example, lies about the resurrection would have been discredited by the authorities, just as lies about Jesus' miracles would
Ultimately though, it is the person ofJesus as presented in the Bible that convinces me that he rose. I know that his teaching is right, that I need a Saviour and that his death makes me right with God. The resurrection is part of message of the Bible, that God will make a new creation, starting with the resurrection of the messiah. (This probably means that one needs to believe in God in order to believe the resurrection.) And I believe it is incorrect to say that the gospel claims could easily be fabricated.

Exactly so!!
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Gordon

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #588 on: August 15, 2015, 10:26:07 AM »

There are plenty of indicators that the disciples did not fabricate the resurrection, and were not deluded. These have been shown many times here.
For example, lies about the resurrection would have been discredited by the authorities, just as lies about Jesus' miracles would

Nope - the resurrection claims were post -hoc so the authorities at that point were simply executing someone (not an unusual occurrence back then). The claims of alleged miracles are exactly that; post-hoc claims written down years later, so how have you excluded the possibility that they are fictional lies to promote the myth of Jesus?

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Ultimately though, it is the person ofJesus as presented in the Bible that convinces me that he rose. I know that his teaching is right, that I need a Saviour and that his death makes me right with God. The resurrection is part of message of the Bible, that God will make a new creation, starting with the resurrection of the messiah. (This probably means that one needs to believe in God in order to believe the resurrection.) And I believe it is incorrect to say that the gospel claims could easily be fabricated.
A nice mix of fallacies there, Spud: starting with the Relativist one (its true for me), an argument from authority (the Bible contents that you accept as true), and on to confirmation bias (your 'probably means that one needs to believe in God in order to believe the resurrection').

This stuff would be trivially easy to fabricate, Spud: it is exactly the type of stuff that someone living in a religious culture in antiquity would swallow: so don't kid yourself!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 10:27:56 AM by Gordon »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #589 on: August 15, 2015, 10:56:49 AM »

There are plenty of indicators that the disciples did not fabricate the resurrection, and were not deluded. These have been shown many times here.
For example, lies about the resurrection would have been discredited by the authorities, just as lies about Jesus' miracles would

Nope - the resurrection claims were post -hoc so the authorities at that point were simply executing someone (not an unusual occurrence back then). The claims of alleged miracles are exactly that; post-hoc claims written down years later, so how have you excluded the possibility that they are fictional lies to promote the myth of Jesus?

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Ultimately though, it is the person ofJesus as presented in the Bible that convinces me that he rose. I know that his teaching is right, that I need a Saviour and that his death makes me right with God. The resurrection is part of message of the Bible, that God will make a new creation, starting with the resurrection of the messiah. (This probably means that one needs to believe in God in order to believe the resurrection.) And I believe it is incorrect to say that the gospel claims could easily be fabricated.
A nice mix of fallacies there, Spud: starting with the Relativist one (its true for me), an argument from authority (the Bible contents that you accept as true), and on to confirmation bias (your 'probably means that one needs to believe in God in order to believe the resurrection').

This stuff would be trivially easy to fabricate, Spud: it is exactly the type of stuff that someone living in a religious culture in antiquity would swallow: so don't kid yourself!
Your account does not take into account the establishment of resurrection believing communities within 2 or 3 decades of the event.

The new testament account itself suggests that the resurrection was not easy to swallow so you are wrong there.

Rather than being easy to fabricate the resurrection account should more realistically have been scotched, quashed and trounced. It doesn't seem to have been.

Even today, yer, average antitheist tends to ignore the actual history and recasts history from a ''these things don't happen perspective'' even to the point where he thinks he is modern, more intelligent on these matters......he isn't. They knew people didn't rise from the dead back then and yet many came to the opinion that it had happened.

Gordon

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #590 on: August 15, 2015, 11:23:38 AM »

Your account does not take into account the establishment of resurrection believing communities within 2 or 3 decades of the event.

Back then, Vlad, in that place and culture, religiosity was the norm - so not surprising that there were a number of religious groups.

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The new testament account itself suggests that the resurrection was not easy to swallow so you are wrong there.
Yet you do swallow it!

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Rather than being easy to fabricate the resurrection account should more realistically have been scotched, quashed and trounced. It doesn't seem to have been.


That may be because the story only grew arms and legs much later - at the time of the death of Jesus these events may only have been of interest to his personal followers.

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Even today, yer, average antitheist tends to ignore the actual history and recasts history from a ''these things don't happen perspective'' even to the point where he thinks he is modern, more intelligent on these matters......he isn't. They knew people didn't rise from the dead and yet many came to the opinion that it had happened.

Problem here though Vlad is that the alleged resurrection of Jesus isn't a historical fact: it is an anecdotal claim. At that time and place in history, and in that culture, a religious narrative probably had more currency than today.

It seems telling, to me anyway, that those here who actively promote the Jesus story as being historical fact seem unable to explain a method that would provide enough identifiable supernatural evidence to at least show how mistakes or lies can be excluded: this may be because, at base, they are (surprisingly to me) just as credulous as those early Christians were, and to the extent that they are deeply mired in fallacies such as those involving incredulity, ignorance, tradition and authority. 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #591 on: August 15, 2015, 12:31:50 PM »

Your account does not take into account the establishment of resurrection believing communities within 2 or 3 decades of the event.

Back then, Vlad, in that place and culture, religiosity was the norm - so not surprising that there were a number of religious groups.

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The new testament account itself suggests that the resurrection was not easy to swallow so you are wrong there.
Yet you do swallow it!

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Rather than being easy to fabricate the resurrection account should more realistically have been scotched, quashed and trounced. It doesn't seem to have been.


That may be because the story only grew arms and legs much later - at the time of the death of Jesus these events may only have been of interest to his personal followers.

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Even today, yer, average antitheist tends to ignore the actual history and recasts history from a ''these things don't happen perspective'' even to the point where he thinks he is modern, more intelligent on these matters......he isn't. They knew people didn't rise from the dead and yet many came to the opinion that it had happened.

Problem here though Vlad is that the alleged resurrection of Jesus isn't a historical fact: it is an anecdotal claim. At that time and place in history, and in that culture, a religious narrative probably had more currency than today.

It seems telling, to me anyway, that those here who actively promote the Jesus story as being historical fact seem unable to explain a method that would provide enough identifiable supernatural evidence to at least show how mistakes or lies can be excluded: this may be because, at base, they are (surprisingly to me) just as credulous as those early Christians were, and to the extent that they are deeply mired in fallacies such as those involving incredulity, ignorance, tradition and authority.
Religiousity is the norm in our world Gordon. You have equated religiosity with ready indeed preferential belief belief in the impossible. The NT epistles show this not to be the case.

You say that the resurrection isn't a historical fact. The fact is that just 20 or so years after we read about communities who believe it did. These communities were established. That is the historical fact your crowd hide.

Things were not as you present them.

Stop chucking the word shamanically about the place as if it were some kind of Brobat guaranteed to clean up all opposing views. The testimony is that some had seen and even felt Jesus. Paul challenges the doubter to interview up to 500. This is a material event. Your guff about wanting a supernatural methodology to establish this.

I agree that increasingly larger communities belief in the resurrection must have been bolstered. This would be the spiritual and religious encounter with Jesus. As far as I can see from the modern perspective even something like a resurrection would have faded and a dynamic on going experience would be needed to maintain the momentum.

Let's finally examine the religious roots the overwhelming opposition comes from other forms of jewish faith in which God does not come to earth incarnated, where Law and it's interpretation is the religious lynchpin and death is the end.

Your thesis that this time and place was fertile territory for a Christianity is off the mark somewhat.

jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #592 on: August 15, 2015, 12:49:37 PM »

There are plenty of indicators that the disciples


Can you show that the disciples were not fictional.

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did not fabricate the resurrection, and were not deluded.

Dead man coming alive again.  Not possible, therefore lies or delusion must have been involved.


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For example, lies about the resurrection would have been discredited by the authorities

Why would the authorities discredit something they didn't even know about?

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Ultimately though, it is the person ofJesus as presented in the Bible that convinces me that he rose. I know that his teaching is right, that I need a Saviour and that his death makes me right with God.

So your "evidence" really comes down to wishful thinking on your part.

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And I believe it is incorrect to say that the gospel claims could easily be fabricated.

I believe it is correct to say it is easier to fabricate a story than bring a dead man back to life.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #593 on: August 15, 2015, 12:56:08 PM »

There are plenty of indicators that the disciples


Can you show that the disciples were not fictional.

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did not fabricate the resurrection, and were not deluded.

Dead man coming alive again.  Not possible, therefore lies or delusion must have been involved.


Quote
For example, lies about the resurrection would have been discredited by the authorities

Why would the authorities discredit something they didn't even know about?

Quote
Ultimately though, it is the person ofJesus as presented in the Bible that convinces me that he rose. I know that his teaching is right, that I need a Saviour and that his death makes me right with God.

So your "evidence" really comes down to wishful thinking on your part.

Quote
And I believe it is incorrect to say that the gospel claims could easily be fabricated.

I believe it is correct to say it is easier to fabricate a story than bring a dead man back to life.
Given that there were communities established within 20 or so years who record disciples etc. it seems a bit of a straw clutch to suppose there weren't itinerant people spreading a narrative.

Spud

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #594 on: August 15, 2015, 12:57:11 PM »
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Nope - the resurrection claims were post -hoc so the authorities at that point were simply executing someone (not an unusual occurrence back then). The claims of alleged miracles are exactly that; post-hoc claims written down years later, so how have you excluded the possibility that they are fictional lies to promote the myth of Jesus?
Actually the gospels were all written before AD 70, as can be seen from the way they are written. The generation of people who knew Jesus was still around, and would have produced evidence to disprove the apostles' claims. 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #595 on: August 15, 2015, 12:59:54 PM »

There are plenty of indicators that the disciples


Can you show that the disciples were not fictional.

Quote
did not fabricate the resurrection, and were not deluded.

Dead man coming alive again.  Not possible, therefore lies or delusion must have been involved.


Quote
For example, lies about the resurrection would have been discredited by the authorities

Why would the authorities discredit something they didn't even know about?

Quote
Ultimately though, it is the person ofJesus as presented in the Bible that convinces me that he rose. I know that his teaching is right, that I need a Saviour and that his death makes me right with God.

So your "evidence" really comes down to wishful thinking on your part.

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And I believe it is incorrect to say that the gospel claims could easily be fabricated.

I believe it is correct to say it is easier to fabricate a story than bring a dead man back to life.
I don't think we can argue that strange stories are fabricated all the time but none achieve this kind of status in such a short time.

Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #596 on: August 15, 2015, 01:04:17 PM »
It seems telling, to me anyway, that those here who actively promote the Jesus story as being historical fact seem unable to explain a method that would provide enough identifiable supernatural evidence to at least show how mistakes or lies can be excluded: this may be because, at base, they are (surprisingly to me) just as credulous as those early Christians were, and to the extent that they are deeply mired in fallacies such as those involving incredulity, ignorance, tradition and authority.
Surprising to you perhaps, Gordon; not even slightly to me.
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jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #597 on: August 15, 2015, 01:05:16 PM »

You say that the resurrection isn't a historical fact. The fact is that just 20 or so years after we read about communities who believe it did. These communities were established. That is the historical fact your crowd hide.

We read about them in Paul's letters.  In one case he is arguing that the resurrection did happen with a Christian community.  This suggests that the nature of the resurrection was not agreed on at the time.

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Paul challenges the doubter to interview up to 500.

No he doesn't.  He asserts that 500 people saw Jesus at one time.  He asserts that some of them were still alive but he doesn't tells us who they are.  How are you supposed to interview a person whose name and address you don't know.

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This is a material event.

What?  Paul writing a letter?  Well we have the letter, so it must be.  However the things he describes in it could be made up just like JK Rowling's stories.

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Let's finally examine the religious roots the overwhelming opposition comes from other forms of jewish faith in which God does not come to earth incarnated, where Law and it's interpretation is the religious lynchpin and death is the end.

Your thesis that this time and place was fertile territory for a Christianity is off the mark somewhat.
Christianity didn't get much traction in Palestine.  Check out the places to which Paul wrote his letters.  So if you are saying that Judaism provided opposition to Christianity, I would agree and it appears to have been quite effective. 
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jeremyp

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #598 on: August 15, 2015, 01:08:17 PM »

Actually the gospels were all written before AD 70, as can be seen from the way they are written. The generation of people who knew Jesus was still around, and would have produced evidence to disprove the apostles' claims.

No Spud, nobody who has looked into the evidence in an honest way thinks the Gospels (except maybe Mark) were written before 70CE.
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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #599 on: August 15, 2015, 01:09:08 PM »
I don't think we can argue that strange stories are fabricated all the time but none achieve this kind of status in such a short time.

Would you like to explain the Mormon Church?
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