Author Topic: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?  (Read 184911 times)

Outrider

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #925 on: August 21, 2015, 01:08:23 PM »
So let me get this straight. It is OK to accept philosophical naturalism by means of argumentum ad populum...but nothing else.

No, you don't have to accept philosophical naturalism at all, you can operate on the hope that supernatural pixie power makes the thoughts you presume you have relate to unrelated but really coincidental movements of your fingers on a keyboard that the internet fairy is watching whilst everybody's internet browser software miraculously shows the exact same confused meaning, complete with superfluous addition of "philosophical naturalism". That's your call.

Accepting the premise that cause and effect are consistent is not 'argumentum ad populum' - it's an assumption, no-one is contesting that it's proven. No-one, similarly, is saying that because people appreciate that scientific findings continue to work that their belief somehow makes it right. What I'm saying is that because scientific findings consistently repeat, we can have an increasing but never total confidence that our initial presumption is correct.

Remember, scientific findings are always provisional.

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I wrote earlier on that the only methodology is science. You keep a) deliberately ignoring that.
b) state philosophical naturalism doesn't have a methodology and it's OK particularly with enough support.
c) The supernatural has no methodology and it's not OK and any support it has is argumentum ad populum,
d) It's ok for anything other than science to have a methodology except the supernatural ( a fine piece of special pleading if ever there was one)

You've written a lot of things, most of it an attempt to shoehorn the phrase 'philosophical naturalism' into the conversation like a four year old that's learnt a new word.

I know philosophical naturalism is not a method. It's a presumption upon which the scientific method is founded.

We don't ignore your claim that only science has a methodology, we just challenge how you can have any confidence in your claims of god in the absence of a methodology of some sort. It's OK for anything to have a methodology outside of science - just as, say, logic and mathematics do.

So there's no special pleading here - we have a methodology, we admit its limitations, and we build our provisional understanding of reality upon it. So well supported is it in practical terms that, in everyday life, we treat it AS THOUGH IT HAD BEEN PROVEN, but we acknowledge in formal argument that it hasn't.

You, on the other hand, contend 'an experience of god' without any justification for differentiating from any of the posited alternative possibilities; you claim 'likelihood' with no method stated for determining such, and then accuse others of special pleading.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #926 on: August 21, 2015, 01:37:50 PM »
So let me get this straight. It is OK to accept philosophical naturalism by means of argumentum ad populum...but nothing else.

No, you don't have to accept philosophical naturalism at all, you can operate on the hope that supernatural pixie power makes the thoughts you presume you have relate to unrelated but really coincidental movements of your fingers on a keyboard that the internet fairy is watching whilst everybody's internet browser software miraculously shows the exact same confused meaning, complete with superfluous addition of "philosophical naturalism". That's your call.


Look........... are you continually mistaking the material world with philosophical naturalism or are you taking the piss?

Outrider

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #927 on: August 21, 2015, 01:54:17 PM »
Look........... are you continually mistaking the material world with philosophical naturalism or are you taking the piss?

... and when did you stop beating your wife?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Spud

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #928 on: August 21, 2015, 02:04:28 PM »
Quote
You still haven't presented a method to confirm the truth of the resurrection. However, you have shown in your own responses in this thread that what people find themselves believing is a separate issue from whether or not what they believe is actually true.
What about all the miracles which Jesus did that are said to have been witnessed by crowds of people, such as the healing of the paralytic, Mark 2:12. You don't have to read far in the gospels before you get to a miracle which is seen by a crowd. We are also occasionally given names, such as Bartimaeus, who was healed of blindness. Presumably he could be traced and his healing verified by the reader. Same for Lazarus. These miracles would have been discredited by people who knew them if the accounts had been fabricated. The men who buried Jesus are also named in John, as are the women who watched his death and burial. The same women are named as finding the tomb empty, and meeting the angels and finally Jesus himself.
The resurrection was believed by so many because people had witnessed his healing miracles beforehand.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #929 on: August 21, 2015, 02:09:27 PM »
Harry Potter met lots of people with names.


And you still aren't getting anywhere near a method.

BeRational

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #930 on: August 21, 2015, 02:10:41 PM »
Quote
You still haven't presented a method to confirm the truth of the resurrection. However, you have shown in your own responses in this thread that what people find themselves believing is a separate issue from whether or not what they believe is actually true.
What about all the miracles which Jesus did that are said to have been witnessed by crowds of people, such as the healing of the paralytic, Mark 2:12. You don't have to read far in the gospels before you get to a miracle which is seen by a crowd. We are also occasionally given names, such as Bartimaeus, who was healed of blindness. Presumably he could be traced and his healing verified by the reader. Same for Lazarus. These miracles would have been discredited by people who knew them if the accounts had been fabricated. The men who buried Jesus are also named in John, as are the women who watched his death and burial. The same women are named as finding the tomb empty, and meeting the angels and finally Jesus himself.
The resurrection was believed by so many because people had witnessed his healing miracles beforehand.

Do you know that reporting that it was witnessed by a group, does not mean there was a group.

I died last week and came back to life, and it was witnessed by 2,000 people.

Unless you have the testimony of the 2,000 people it is meaningless.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Outrider

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #931 on: August 21, 2015, 02:18:52 PM »
Quote
You still haven't presented a method to confirm the truth of the resurrection. However, you have shown in your own responses in this thread that what people find themselves believing is a separate issue from whether or not what they believe is actually true.
What about all the miracles which Jesus did that are said to have been witnessed by crowds of people, such as the healing of the paralytic, Mark 2:12. You don't have to read far in the gospels before you get to a miracle which is seen by a crowd. We are also occasionally given names, such as Bartimaeus, who was healed of blindness. Presumably he could be traced and his healing verified by the reader. Same for Lazarus. These miracles would have been discredited by people who knew them if the accounts had been fabricated. The men who buried Jesus are also named in John, as are the women who watched his death and burial. The same women are named as finding the tomb empty, and meeting the angels and finally Jesus himself.
The resurrection was believed by so many because people had witnessed his healing miracles beforehand.

We don't have a crowd of witnesses, though, Spud, we have one person who probably wasn't actually there recounting a tale he's heard in which it's claimed a crowd of people saw something.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Gordon

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #932 on: August 21, 2015, 02:30:33 PM »
Quote
You still haven't presented a method to confirm the truth of the resurrection. However, you have shown in your own responses in this thread that what people find themselves believing is a separate issue from whether or not what they believe is actually true.
What about all the miracles which Jesus did that are said to have been witnessed by crowds of people, such as the healing of the paralytic, Mark 2:12. You don't have to read far in the gospels before you get to a miracle which is seen by a crowd. We are also occasionally given names, such as Bartimaeus, who was healed of blindness. Presumably he could be traced and his healing verified by the reader. Same for Lazarus. These miracles would have been discredited by people who knew them if the accounts had been fabricated. The men who buried Jesus are also named in John, as are the women who watched his death and burial. The same women are named as finding the tomb empty, and meeting the angels and finally Jesus himself.
The resurrection was believed by so many because people had witnessed his healing miracles beforehand.

So the story goes!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #933 on: August 21, 2015, 02:41:00 PM »

We don't have a crowd of witnesses, though, Spud, we have one person who probably wasn't actually there recounting a tale he's heard in which it's claimed a crowd of people saw something.

O.

And we have no real idea of who that person is.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #934 on: August 21, 2015, 02:51:30 PM »
As raised numerous times previously, we have a well attested miracle witnessed by numbers far in excess of any claims for the resurrection in the Miracle of the Sun -

Do theists on here (A) think it was a miracle? (b) If they don't, can they explain why since by any form of analysis it is better evidenced that it at least happened, even if we cannot ascribe it to being supernatural? (c) If they do, how do they think that no one other than those there noticed the effects?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

~TW~

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #935 on: August 21, 2015, 03:12:33 PM »
That's based on testable, shareable evidence though ~TW~ ... you know, real stuff ;)

 Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.

  ~TW~
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Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #936 on: August 21, 2015, 03:22:19 PM »
Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
I don't give a damn what the Bible says. I can show you the evidence that demonstrates why evolution is a fact. Where is your evidence that anything the Bible says in the same field is correct?

Quote
Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.
Evolution is a demonstrable fact. The Bible has yet to be demonstrated to be correct with regard to living creatures (not to mention a whole lot else ... but let's stay on track for now).

Basically, as soon as you start invoking the Bible, it's obvious that you have no argument.

At all.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #937 on: August 21, 2015, 03:27:18 PM »
As raised numerous times previously, we have a well attested miracle witnessed by numbers far in excess of any claims for the resurrection in the Miracle of the Sun -

Do theists on here (A) think it was a miracle? (b) If they don't, can they explain why since by any form of analysis it is better evidenced that it at least happened, even if we cannot ascribe it to being supernatural? (c) If they do, how do they think that no one other than those there noticed the effects?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun
I feel duty bound to correct you on one point, NS.

Not even everybody present at the site saw anything at all unusual or remarkable - and that includes devout believers, not just sceptics.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 03:36:06 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #938 on: August 21, 2015, 03:47:09 PM »
I feel duty bound to correct you on one point, NS.

Not even everybody present at the site saw anything at all unusual or remarkable - and that includes devout believers, not just sceptics.
Indeeed, and thanks for that - of course it triggers the further correction that the Pope saw it at the Vatican 33 years later

Outrider

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #939 on: August 21, 2015, 03:51:20 PM »
That's based on testable, shareable evidence though ~TW~ ... you know, real stuff ;)

 Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.

  ~TW~

Evolution is a phenomenon. It has been observed in the laboratory. It is not in question at all. Evolution is a fact in exactly the same way that the gravitational effect is a fact.

The Theory of Evolution, the neo-Darwinian, genetics-based explanation for how evolution occurs is a theory: it is one of the best supported, most widely bolstered theories that we have in the body of science.

To deny The Theory of Evolution is ignorance of the highest order, but to deny that evolution happens is just laughably, demonstrably, moronically wrong.

O.
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Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #940 on: August 21, 2015, 04:00:57 PM »
Oh dear.

Giving that you're dealing with ~TW~ I think we might well be about to have 'that' conversation about the word theory ...
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #941 on: August 21, 2015, 04:08:49 PM »
Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
I don't give a damn what the Bible says. I can show you the evidence that demonstrates why evolution is a fact. Where is your evidence that anything the Bible says in the same field is correct?

Quote
Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.
Evolution is a demonstrable fact. The Bible has yet to be demonstrated to be correct with regard to living creatures (not to mention a whole lot else ... but let's stay on track for now).

Basically, as soon as you start invoking the Bible, it's obvious that you have no argument.

At all.


 Evolution is a theory but if you can post the evidence of this Genius who has proven it to be a fact then do so I am waiting.I did not read it in the papers.

~TW~
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floo

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #942 on: August 21, 2015, 04:12:38 PM »
Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
I don't give a damn what the Bible says. I can show you the evidence that demonstrates why evolution is a fact. Where is your evidence that anything the Bible says in the same field is correct?

Quote
Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.
Evolution is a demonstrable fact. The Bible has yet to be demonstrated to be correct with regard to living creatures (not to mention a whole lot else ... but let's stay on track for now).

Basically, as soon as you start invoking the Bible, it's obvious that you have no argument.

At all.


 Evolution is a theory but if you can post the evidence of this Genius who has proven it to be a fact then do so I am waiting.I did not read it in the papers.

~TW~

Evolution is a theory with some substance behind it, belief in the deity has none!

~TW~

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #943 on: August 21, 2015, 04:12:52 PM »
That's based on testable, shareable evidence though ~TW~ ... you know, real stuff ;)

 Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.

  ~TW~

Evolution is a phenomenon. It has been observed in the laboratory. It is not in question at all. Evolution is a fact in exactly the same way that the gravitational effect is a fact.

The Theory of Evolution, the neo-Darwinian, genetics-based explanation for how evolution occurs is a theory: it is one of the best supported, most widely bolstered theories that we have in the body of science.

To deny The Theory of Evolution is ignorance of the highest order, but to deny that evolution happens is just laughably, demonstrably, moronically wrong.

O.

 You need to put more water in your drinks.

 ~TW~
" Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs/George Burns

~TW~

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #944 on: August 21, 2015, 04:14:25 PM »
Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
I don't give a damn what the Bible says. I can show you the evidence that demonstrates why evolution is a fact. Where is your evidence that anything the Bible says in the same field is correct?

Quote
Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.
Evolution is a demonstrable fact. The Bible has yet to be demonstrated to be correct with regard to living creatures (not to mention a whole lot else ... but let's stay on track for now).

Basically, as soon as you start invoking the Bible, it's obvious that you have no argument.

At all.


 Evolution is a theory but if you can post the evidence of this Genius who has proven it to be a fact then do so I am waiting.I did not read it in the papers.

~TW~

Evolution is a theory with some substance behind it, belief in the deity has none!

 So you disagree with the other two lollypops.  ;) They both think it is a fact.



 ~TW~
" Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs/George Burns

floo

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #945 on: August 21, 2015, 04:14:42 PM »
That's based on testable, shareable evidence though ~TW~ ... you know, real stuff ;)

 Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.

  ~TW~

Evolution is a phenomenon. It has been observed in the laboratory. It is not in question at all. Evolution is a fact in exactly the same way that the gravitational effect is a fact.

The Theory of Evolution, the neo-Darwinian, genetics-based explanation for how evolution occurs is a theory: it is one of the best supported, most widely bolstered theories that we have in the body of science.

To deny The Theory of Evolution is ignorance of the highest order, but to deny that evolution happens is just laughably, demonstrably, moronically wrong.

O.

 You need to put more water in your drinks.

 ~TW~

It is you who obviously hasn't a clue what you are talking about, if your posts are an indication of what passes for 'thought' where you are concerned! ::)

Outrider

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #946 on: August 21, 2015, 04:16:49 PM »
That's based on testable, shareable evidence though ~TW~ ... you know, real stuff ;)

 Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.

  ~TW~

Evolution is a phenomenon. It has been observed in the laboratory. It is not in question at all. Evolution is a fact in exactly the same way that the gravitational effect is a fact.

The Theory of Evolution, the neo-Darwinian, genetics-based explanation for how evolution occurs is a theory: it is one of the best supported, most widely bolstered theories that we have in the body of science.

To deny The Theory of Evolution is ignorance of the highest order, but to deny that evolution happens is just laughably, demonstrably, moronically wrong.

O.

 You need to put more water in your drinks.

 ~TW~

As rebuttals go, you forgot the rebuttal. Should I presume you cede the point? Or should I presume that you are allergic to facts and reason, and are going to continue to claim that some god thought Australians would really, really like marsupials...?

O.
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~TW~

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #947 on: August 21, 2015, 04:18:38 PM »
That's based on testable, shareable evidence though ~TW~ ... you know, real stuff ;)

 Sorry shaker you are well wrong the bible says----------And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Evolution does not say that so you, need like Gordon to think again.

  ~TW~

Evolution is a phenomenon. It has been observed in the laboratory. It is not in question at all. Evolution is a fact in exactly the same way that the gravitational effect is a fact.

The Theory of Evolution, the neo-Darwinian, genetics-based explanation for how evolution occurs is a theory: it is one of the best supported, most widely bolstered theories that we have in the body of science.

To deny The Theory of Evolution is ignorance of the highest order, but to deny that evolution happens is just laughably, demonstrably, moronically wrong.

O.



 You need to put more water in your drinks.

 ~TW~

As rebuttals go, you forgot the rebuttal. Should I presume you cede the point? Or should I presume that you are allergic to facts and reason, and are going to continue to claim that some god thought Australians would really, really like marsupials...?

O.

 What facts this would have made World shattering news so where is it.

 ~TW~
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 04:26:54 PM by ~TW~ »
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Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #948 on: August 21, 2015, 05:14:16 PM »
What facts this would have made World shattering news
It did - in 1859.

Most people have got on board with reality since then, ~TW~
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #949 on: August 21, 2015, 05:15:22 PM »
So you disagree with the other two lollypops.  ;) They both think it is a fact.
Evolution is both a fact and a theory, but to know why this is so you need to understand the meaning of the word theory in its proper scientific context (since we're dealing with science here), which alas you do not.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 05:18:11 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.