Author Topic: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?  (Read 185202 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1025 on: August 22, 2015, 01:58:39 PM »
Dawkins in the God Delusion

''it is "more parsimonious to conjure up, say a 'big bang singularity' ".

Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1026 on: August 22, 2015, 02:01:51 PM »
Alas and alack IT IS in that book since it is a transcript of the BBC interview carried out by Copleston.
Fortunately I don't need Hick's book to check the source; I already have it. The debate between Russell and Father Frederick Copleston (not an interview of the former by the latter) was quite famous in its day. It was broadcast on what was then known as the BBC's Third Programme in 1948. I have a full transcript in my copy of Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian and other essays on religion and related subjects* which I've just checked. The word 'impertinent' is not to be found.

Bad luck Vlad ;)

Quote
Of course if Russell is stating that any questions on the origin of the universe are not pertinent....they maybe impertinent.
Why 'if' and 'may be' all of a sudden Vlad? Earlier this morning it was 'definitely.'

I'll give you this much Vlad: when it comes to getting things not merely wrong but the polar opposite of what is the case, you're the gift that keeps on giving ;)

* London; Routledge; 1996; pp. 133-153.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1027 on: August 22, 2015, 02:04:26 PM »
Dawkins in the God Delusion

''it is "more parsimonious to conjure up, say a 'big bang singularity' ".
Very nice, but this 'impertinence' which you allege he charges about asking questions of the universe's origin? Where's that?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1028 on: August 22, 2015, 02:15:27 PM »
Dawkins in the God Delusion

''it is "more parsimonious to conjure up, say a 'big bang singularity' ".
Very nice, but this 'impertinence' which you allege he charges about asking questions of the universe's origin? Where's that?
I recall it in the ''criticisms'' of Dawkins section on his Wikipedia page but alas that section seems no longer to be there.

Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1029 on: August 22, 2015, 02:36:17 PM »
Never mind  ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1030 on: August 22, 2015, 02:48:24 PM »
Never mind  ;)
You're right....I suppose we should just rejoice that nobody criticises the Doctor any more.....

Shaker

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1031 on: August 22, 2015, 02:49:36 PM »
Nobody should rejoice when criticism ceases; it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1032 on: August 23, 2015, 09:47:00 AM »
... ;it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Such as when some people criticise the New Testament, for instance.  Claims such as the documentary evidence didn't appear until 'decades after' the events, for instance.  After all, documentation doesn't have to be in a written form, though in our highly literate society, we tend to assume it will.
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jjohnjil

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1033 on: August 23, 2015, 11:30:47 AM »
... ;it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Such as when some people criticise the New Testament, for instance.  Claims such as the documentary evidence didn't appear until 'decades after' the events, for instance.  After all, documentation doesn't have to be in a written form, though in our highly literate society, we tend to assume it will.

It is amazing that you are quite content for a claim of this enormity (a guy coming back from being dead for three days) written down 20 years after the alleged event, by people you have no idea as to their integrity or motive, and with just alleged sightings and empty tombs as evidence ...

And yet if in a newspaper this morning, you read of a guy coming back from the dead in a hospital bed in London yesterday, after being dead for ten hours, you'd wonder if it was a hoax!

Strange what confirmation bias will do to a believer's mind!

floo

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1034 on: August 23, 2015, 11:51:05 AM »
... ;it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Such as when some people criticise the New Testament, for instance.  Claims such as the documentary evidence didn't appear until 'decades after' the events, for instance.  After all, documentation doesn't have to be in a written form, though in our highly literate society, we tend to assume it will.

It is amazing that you are quite content for a claim of this enormity (a guy coming back from being dead for three days) written down 20 years after the alleged event, by people you have no idea as to their integrity or motive, and with just alleged sightings and empty tombs as evidence ...

And yet if in a newspaper this morning, you read of a guy coming back from the dead in a hospital bed in London yesterday, after being dead for ten hours, you'd wonder if it was a hoax!

Strange what confirmation bias will do to a believer's mind!

You would think the guy was wrongly pronounced dead!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1035 on: August 23, 2015, 12:37:33 PM »
... ;it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Such as when some people criticise the New Testament, for instance.  Claims such as the documentary evidence didn't appear until 'decades after' the events, for instance.  After all, documentation doesn't have to be in a written form, though in our highly literate society, we tend to assume it will.

It is amazing that you are quite content for a claim of this enormity (a guy coming back from being dead for three days) written down 20 years after the alleged event, by people you have no idea as to their integrity or motive, and with just alleged sightings and empty tombs as evidence ...

And yet if in a newspaper this morning, you read of a guy coming back from the dead in a hospital bed in London yesterday, after being dead for ten hours, you'd wonder if it was a hoax!

Strange what confirmation bias will do to a believer's mind!
You seem to be confusing what was written down 20 years after, with what survives is dated to 20 years after.
The point is what appears in what survives dated to 20 years after is a letter written to an established orthodox Christian community.

The way you present it it looks as though this established community was invented 20 years after.

Why did the roman and jewish authorities not conclusively establish a hoax at the time?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1036 on: August 23, 2015, 12:51:00 PM »
As pointed out previously, the very mentions of Christians by non biblical sources used by Christians to back up the historicity of Jesus, show no real understanding of the resurrection or any thought given to the idea of 'disproving'. If you want to claim those as useful in the sense of historicity, then they completely undermine the argument about it being something they were trying to disprove

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1037 on: August 23, 2015, 12:54:22 PM »
As pointed out previously, the very mentions of Christians by non biblical sources used by Christians to back up the historicity of Jesus, show no real understanding of the resurrection or any thought given to the idea of 'disproving'. If you want to claim those as useful in the sense of historicity, then they completely undermine the argument about it being something they were trying to disprove
Eh?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1038 on: August 23, 2015, 01:05:58 PM »
What are struggling to get? The non biblical sources for the historicity of Jesus show no hint of any understanding of the claims about resurrection never mind any thoughts of disproving it.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1039 on: August 23, 2015, 01:15:58 PM »
What are struggling to get? The non biblical sources for the historicity of Jesus show no hint of any understanding of the claims about resurrection never mind any thoughts of disproving it.
Why didn't you say?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1040 on: August 23, 2015, 01:17:30 PM »
I did. Perhaps it just takes you to read things more often.

jjohnjil

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1041 on: August 23, 2015, 01:26:20 PM »
... ;it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Such as when some people criticise the New Testament, for instance.  Claims such as the documentary evidence didn't appear until 'decades after' the events, for instance.  After all, documentation doesn't have to be in a written form, though in our highly literate society, we tend to assume it will.

It is amazing that you are quite content for a claim of this enormity (a guy coming back from being dead for three days) written down 20 years after the alleged event, by people you have no idea as to their integrity or motive, and with just alleged sightings and empty tombs as evidence ...

And yet if in a newspaper this morning, you read of a guy coming back from the dead in a hospital bed in London yesterday, after being dead for ten hours, you'd wonder if it was a hoax!

Strange what confirmation bias will do to a believer's mind!
You seem to be confusing what was written down 20 years after, with what survives is dated to 20 years after.
The point is what appears in what survives dated to 20 years after is a letter written to an established orthodox Christian community.

The way you present it it looks as though this established community was invented 20 years after.

Why did the roman and jewish authorities not conclusively establish a hoax at the time?

I haven't mentioned any established community so I fail to see what your main point is. 

As far as the Roman and Jewish authorities not looking into a hoax is concerned, they didn't even know about this resurrection story - no one other than JCs followers knew so others couldn't read about it until at least 20 years later - so there was no need to look into any hoax story.

If the Romans had known, the history books would mention it.  There are plenty of facts about the Roman occupation long before JCs time.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1042 on: August 23, 2015, 01:28:00 PM »
What are struggling to get? The non biblical sources for the historicity of Jesus show no hint of any understanding of the claims about resurrection never mind any thoughts of disproving it.
Tacitus annals source Wikipedia.

'' Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1043 on: August 23, 2015, 01:34:03 PM »
... ;it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Such as when some people criticise the New Testament, for instance.  Claims such as the documentary evidence didn't appear until 'decades after' the events, for instance.  After all, documentation doesn't have to be in a written form, though in our highly literate society, we tend to assume it will.

It is amazing that you are quite content for a claim of this enormity (a guy coming back from being dead for three days) written down 20 years after the alleged event, by people you have no idea as to their integrity or motive, and with just alleged sightings and empty tombs as evidence ...

And yet if in a newspaper this morning, you read of a guy coming back from the dead in a hospital bed in London yesterday, after being dead for ten hours, you'd wonder if it was a hoax!

Strange what confirmation bias will do to a believer's mind!
You seem to be confusing what was written down 20 years after, with what survives is dated to 20 years after.
The point is what appears in what survives dated to 20 years after is a letter written to an established orthodox Christian community.

The way you present it it looks as though this established community was invented 20 years after.

Why did the roman and jewish authorities not conclusively establish a hoax at the time?

I haven't mentioned any established community so I fail to see what your main point is. 

As far as the Roman and Jewish authorities not looking into a hoax is concerned, they didn't even know about this resurrection story - no one other than JCs followers knew so others couldn't read about it until at least 20 years later - so there was no need to look into any hoax story.

If the Romans had known, the history books would mention it.  There are plenty of facts about the Roman occupation long before JCs time.
No one other than JC's followers knew the story of the resurrection? That is unlikely because a) It must have been preached as there is no explanation for established communities.

I think Tacitus's comment as follows put's a question mark that the story of the resurrection was not known or that there were no attempt to discredit it.

 Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

jjohnjil

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1044 on: August 23, 2015, 01:43:02 PM »
... ;it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Such as when some people criticise the New Testament, for instance.  Claims such as the documentary evidence didn't appear until 'decades after' the events, for instance.  After all, documentation doesn't have to be in a written form, though in our highly literate society, we tend to assume it will.

It is amazing that you are quite content for a claim of this enormity (a guy coming back from being dead for three days) written down 20 years after the alleged event, by people you have no idea as to their integrity or motive, and with just alleged sightings and empty tombs as evidence ...

And yet if in a newspaper this morning, you read of a guy coming back from the dead in a hospital bed in London yesterday, after being dead for ten hours, you'd wonder if it was a hoax!

Strange what confirmation bias will do to a believer's mind!
You seem to be confusing what was written down 20 years after, with what survives is dated to 20 years after.
The point is what appears in what survives dated to 20 years after is a letter written to an established orthodox Christian community.

The way you present it it looks as though this established community was invented 20 years after.

Why did the roman and jewish authorities not conclusively establish a hoax at the time?

I haven't mentioned any established community so I fail to see what your main point is. 

As far as the Roman and Jewish authorities not looking into a hoax is concerned, they didn't even know about this resurrection story - no one other than JCs followers knew so others couldn't read about it until at least 20 years later - so there was no need to look into any hoax story.

If the Romans had known, the history books would mention it.  There are plenty of facts about the Roman occupation long before JCs time.
No one other than JC's followers knew the story of the resurrection? That is unlikely because a) It must have been preached as there is no explanation for established communities.

I think Tacitus's comment as follows put's a question mark that the story of the resurrection was not known or that there were no attempt to discredit it.

 Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

The Romans looked on the sect the same way as we look on such sects these days - troublemakers!  They certainly wouldn't have taken any resurrection story any more seriously than we do today .... with notable exceptions, of course!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1045 on: August 23, 2015, 01:56:25 PM »
... ;it's preferable when it's based on accurate reportage though.
Such as when some people criticise the New Testament, for instance.  Claims such as the documentary evidence didn't appear until 'decades after' the events, for instance.  After all, documentation doesn't have to be in a written form, though in our highly literate society, we tend to assume it will.

It is amazing that you are quite content for a claim of this enormity (a guy coming back from being dead for three days) written down 20 years after the alleged event, by people you have no idea as to their integrity or motive, and with just alleged sightings and empty tombs as evidence ...

And yet if in a newspaper this morning, you read of a guy coming back from the dead in a hospital bed in London yesterday, after being dead for ten hours, you'd wonder if it was a hoax!

Strange what confirmation bias will do to a believer's mind!
You seem to be confusing what was written down 20 years after, with what survives is dated to 20 years after.
The point is what appears in what survives dated to 20 years after is a letter written to an established orthodox Christian community.

The way you present it it looks as though this established community was invented 20 years after.

Why did the roman and jewish authorities not conclusively establish a hoax at the time?

I haven't mentioned any established community so I fail to see what your main point is. 

As far as the Roman and Jewish authorities not looking into a hoax is concerned, they didn't even know about this resurrection story - no one other than JCs followers knew so others couldn't read about it until at least 20 years later - so there was no need to look into any hoax story.

If the Romans had known, the history books would mention it.  There are plenty of facts about the Roman occupation long before JCs time.
No one other than JC's followers knew the story of the resurrection? That is unlikely because a) It must have been preached as there is no explanation for established communities.

I think Tacitus's comment as follows put's a question mark that the story of the resurrection was not known or that there were no attempt to discredit it.

 Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

The Romans looked on the sect the same way as we look on such sects these days - troublemakers!  They certainly wouldn't have taken any resurrection story any more seriously than we do today .... with notable exceptions, of course!
Apart from calling it a most meschiebious superstition and they must have taken it seriously for it to be ''checked''. you now agree that they might have known about it!

floo

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1046 on: August 23, 2015, 02:02:13 PM »
'meschiebious'?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1047 on: August 23, 2015, 02:05:14 PM »
What are struggling to get? The non biblical sources for the historicity of Jesus show no hint of any understanding of the claims about resurrection never mind any thoughts of disproving it.
Tacitus annals source Wikipedia.

'' Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.''

So nothing about resurrection- told you to read things more often.

jjohnjil

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1048 on: August 23, 2015, 02:10:49 PM »
Vlad

The Romans may well have heard rumours of fantastic happenings but why would they take them seriously - you wouldn't believe it if Sarah Palin was to put a similar story around today!

floo

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Re: Have you tried reading the NT in the correct order?
« Reply #1049 on: August 23, 2015, 02:21:31 PM »
Vlad

The Romans may well have heard rumours of fantastic happenings but why would they take them seriously - you wouldn't believe it if Sarah Palin was to put a similar story around today!

One wouldn't believe that ghastly creature, Palin, full stop! ::)