You can live with hope or you can live without hope.

[Leonard James]

Leonard,

I tried the links and they work fine. Are you by any chance trying along with the lines I have written after the links?  Just try these.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120910152011.htm 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081224215542.htm 

I request you to try again or go to the Science Daily site and search for 'unconscious mind'. 

It's not about agreeing with me. It's about what latest research in science has to say about the unconscious mind. All of us should know that.

Both these links work fine Sriram, thank you. I will now read them and tell you what I think.

[Sriram]

Well..thanks for trying again..Leonard.

For the benefit of others who may not be bothered to follow the links...here is a brief extract from each.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120910152011.htm

********************************************************************
new findings demonstrate that the placebo effect can be activated outside of conscious awareness, and provide an explanation for how patients can show clinical improvement even when they receive treatments devoid of active ingredients or of known therapeutic efficacy.

"In this study, we used a novel experimental design and found that placebo and nocebo [negative placebo] effects rely on brain mechanisms that are not dependent on cognitive awareness," explains first author Karin Jensen, PhD, of the Department of Psychiatry

It has long been believed that placebo responses are related to conscious beliefs or thoughts and that when given an inert pill or therapy, patients get better because they have the expectation that they will get better, or in the case of nocebos, get worse because they anticipate that they will get worse.

Ted Kaptchuk notes, "It's not what patients think will happen [that influences outcomes] it's what the nonconscious mind anticipates despite any conscious thoughts. This mechanism is automatic, fast and powerful, and does not depend on deliberation and judgment. These findings open an entirely new door towards understanding placebos and the ritual of medicine."

******************************************************************


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081224215542.htm

******************************************************************

Alex Pouget, associate professor of brain and cognitive sciences at the University of Rochester, has shown that people do indeed make optimal decisions—but only when their unconscious brain makes the choice.

"A lot of the early work in this field was on conscious decision making, but most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget.

Subjects in this test performed exactly as if their brains were subconsciously gathering information before reaching a confidence threshold, which was then reported to the conscious mind as a definite, sure answer. The subjects, however, were never aware of the complex computations going on,

*****************************************************************

[Sassy]

Most people live with hope for what the future holds, both believers and non-believers.

Believers just hope for more than non-believers.

Interesting you believe the believer hopes for more.

[Sassy]

Christians chose the former...


Is it just about hope? No it isn't.
But the truth is God has a much better plan for our lives and most people are just to scared to let go of the reins and let someone else make the plans and decisions for them.

A number of threads on the forum read like a battle of keeping your own independence from God so mocking those who would rather depend on God. What options are there?
What do YOU  really know about God when it comes to making that choice?
A choice we all make sometime in our life whether  it is a conscious choice or not.

We all need hope. I prefer mine to be realistic rather than fantastic.

So you believe the Christians hope is 'FANTASTIC'? Why is that?

[Leonard James]

Hi again Sriram,

I have now read the articles and learned that when subjected to external stimuli the subconscious can indeed come to a right/wrong decision of its own volition, and sometimes  contrary to the conscious thought decision. Thank you.

Now I am struggling to remember how this affects the subject under discussion in this thread! 

[Sassy]

Nobody mocks those who depend on God until they try to mix science with faith and make 'true for me ' true for everyone, even those for whom the Christian 'truth' has brought nothing but pain.

Your view isn't realistic...
You cannot mix science with faith.I think you meant religion and science... because both religion and science require faith from a person. 

Truth is that science and religion both require a blind faith at first. Though faith in science has not yet been made by sight...

[Leonard James]

Most people live with hope for what the future holds, both believers and non-believers.

Believers just hope for more than non-believers.

Interesting you believe the believer hopes for more.

Well, believers hope for eternal life with "God", the rest of us don't. Surely that is hoping for more?

[Leonard James]

So you believe the Christians hope is 'FANTASTIC'? Why is that?

Because it is based on the fantasy story of "God".

[Sassy]

Why do certain types of Christians think NON-Christians are somehow stupid, ignorant or 'refuse' to see the Truth???

For myself...I personally have not found that to be the case.

Stupidity, refusal or being ignorant does not stop you finding Christ.
It is because man looks through the natural to find God and the knowledge of science etc. But the truth of God is simple and is found
through humbling ourselves and finding Gods way of calling man to himself. Man cannot do it, through his own understanding, his own will or strength. Christ is the ONLY way to know God.

[Sassy]

Most people live with hope for what the future holds, both believers and non-believers.

Believers just hope for more than non-believers.

Interesting you believe the believer hopes for more.

Well, believers hope for eternal life with "God", the rest of us don't. Surely that is hoping for more?

I cannot see why that hope would alone sustain belief?
It didn't for you. Do you not want more? It is NEVER too late to ask...remember that...

[floo]

Nobody mocks those who depend on God until they try to mix science with faith and make 'true for me ' true for everyone, even those for whom the Christian 'truth' has brought nothing but pain.

Your view isn't realistic...
You cannot mix science with faith.I think you meant religion and science... because both religion and science require faith from a person. 

Truth is that science and religion both require a blind faith at first. Though faith in science has not yet been made by sight...

And your view is realistic Sass?

[Leonard James]

I cannot see why that hope would alone sustain belief?
It didn't for you.

Of course not! I believed "God" existed because that is what I was taught from childhood and accepted what I was taught about him and his kingdom.

Do you not want more? It is NEVER too late to ask...remember that...

There are many things I would like to believe, Sass, but wanting to believe them is useless if you are unable to convince yourself that they are true.

[torridon]

Christians chose the former...


Is it just about hope? No it isn't.
But the truth is God has a much better plan for our lives and most people are just to scared to let go of the reins and let someone else make the plans and decisions for them.

A number of threads on the forum read like a battle of keeping your own independence from God so mocking those who would rather depend on God. What options are there?
What do YOU  really know about God when it comes to making that choice?
A choice we all make sometime in our life whether  it is a conscious choice or not.

We all need hope. I prefer mine to be realistic rather than fantastic.

So you believe the Christians hope is 'FANTASTIC'? Why is that?

My preference is to remain grounded, tethered to reality by valuing the disciplined ethos characterised by scientific methods. Anyone who actually cares about whether their beliefs are true or not would want to stay focused and not wander far from what is well evidenced through research I would have thought. If you wander too far you risk ending up in a fantasy land of baseless beliefs.

[trippymonkey]

Why do certain types of Christians think NON-Christians are somehow stupid, ignorant or 'refuse' to see the Truth???

For myself...I personally have not found that to be the case.

Stupidity, refusal or being ignorant does not stop you finding Christ.
It is because man looks through the natural to find God and the knowledge of science etc. But the truth of God is simple and is found
through humbling ourselves and finding Gods way of calling man to himself. Man cannot do it, through his own understanding, his own will or strength. Christ is the ONLY way to know God.

Ok but you wont know that until you die. And maybe not then either ?!!?!?

[Hope]

Why do certain types of Christians think NON-Christians are somehow stupid, ignorant or 'refuse' to see the Truth???

Could it have anything to do with such people asking questions like this, Nick?     Or I wonder whether it something to do with the fact that some non-Christians make it very plain that this is how they view Christians.

[Hope]

Science reveals that reality is often counterintuitive.

Suggesting, of course, that some folks' views - that a belief in something beyond science is counterintuitive and therefore not real - are, at the very least, open to question.

[BeRational]

Science reveals that reality is often counterintuitive.

Suggesting, of course, that some folks' views - that a belief in something beyond science is counterintuitive and therefore not real - are, at the very least, open to question.

No, this does not mean that if you think up some weird thing, it is likely to be weird because sometimes the universe is weird.

As ever, the time to believe something (and the ONLY time) is when the evidence is compelling.

Electrons can be in many places all at once. This is not true because it's weird, it's true because the science points this way.
True as always, means best approximation of truth, and always subject to change.

[Hope]

My preference is to remain grounded, tethered to reality by valuing the disciplined ethos characterised by scientific methods. Anyone who actually cares about whether their beliefs are true or not would want to stay focused and not wander far from what is well evidenced through research I would have thought. If you wander too far you risk ending up in a fantasy land of baseless beliefs.

The problem with this approach, imo torri, is that it limits one to a relatively narrow area of reality - namely those elements of reality that are open to empirical research.  For instance, there are some parts of the natural world that I absolutely adore being in - walking behind waterfalls; hiking in the some of the most incredible landscapes around; (until fairly recently) running with no real purpose through wild countryside and demoralising urban sprawl: being different to others, being immersed in a book, being part of a community, being contrary!  All these are things and conditions that science doesn't even attempt to explain.  Science deals with patterns; imo, life deals with experience.

[Sriram]

Hi again Sriram,

I have now read the articles and learned that when subjected to external stimuli the subconscious can indeed come to a right/wrong decision of its own volition, and sometimes  contrary to the conscious thought decision. Thank you.

Now I am struggling to remember how this affects the subject under discussion in this thread! 

I have already covered this in the 'Faith' thread.

You seem to have missed the 'placebo' effect and the fact that leaving it to the unconscious makes for better decisions. Ref my thread 26 above.

***********************************************

  "It's not what patients think will happen [that influences outcomes] it's what the nonconscious mind anticipates despite any conscious thoughts. This mechanism is automatic, fast and powerful, and does not depend on deliberation and judgment.

...shown that people do indeed make optimal decisions—but only when their unconscious brain makes the choice.

...most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget.

************************************************

You really think these are small matters to be dismissed casually?! And it should be obvious how relying on the unconscious relates to 'faith'.  And we are just beginning to  scratch the surface in this area.

[floo]

Science reveals that reality is often counterintuitive.

Suggesting, of course, that some folks' views - that a belief in something beyond science is counterintuitive and therefore not real - are, at the very least, open to question.

Belief in something beyond science might seem real to the person concerned, but as there is no verifiable evidence to back it up, then it is as reasonable not to believe.

[Hope]

No, this does not mean that if you think up some weird thing, it is likely to be weird because sometimes the universe is weird.

I notice you have had to use the phrase "if you think up some weird thing"; do you spend a lot of your time 'thinking weird things up'?  I rarely do; my imagination isn't up to that.

As ever, the time to believe something (and the ONLY time) is when the evidence is compelling.

I'd disagree.  The time to believe is when one believes something: when the evidence is compelling, then is the time to know.

Let's take an example: Mrs A, whilst doing her routine breast check comes across a lump.  She ignores it for a month, and then notices that it is slightly larger.  It is then time to believe that she has breast cancer and ask her GP for a proper check-up.  Only when the results come back as malign/benign/something else can she really know.

I believe in Christ because I find the evidence to be more compelling of belief than of non/disbelief.  It isn't only based on what I read in the Bible or hear in church: it is also based on my experience of humanity, and of the natural world.  Ironically, at least for some, it is also based on my understanding of science and the limitations of science.

[floo]

No, this does not mean that if you think up some weird thing, it is likely to be weird because sometimes the universe is weird.

I notice you have had to use the phrase "if you think up some weird thing"; do you spend a lot of your time 'thinking weird things up'?  I rarely do; my imagination isn't up to that.

As ever, the time to believe something (and the ONLY time) is when the evidence is compelling.

I'd disagree.  The time to believe is when one believes something: when the evidence is compelling, then is the time to know.

Let's take an example: Mrs A, whilst doing her routine breast check comes across a lump.  She ignores it for a month, and then notices that it is slightly larger.  It is then time to believe that she has breast cancer and ask her GP for a proper check-up.  Only when the results come back as malign/benign/something else can she really know.

I believe in Christ because I find the evidence to be more compelling of belief than of non/disbelief.  It isn't only based on what I read in the Bible or hear in church: it is also based on my experience of humanity, and of the natural world.  Ironically, at least for some, it is also based on my understanding of science and the limitations of science.

Fine if that works for you, it didn't work for me.

[Leonard James]

Hi again Sriram,

I have now read the articles and learned that when subjected to external stimuli the subconscious can indeed come to a right/wrong decision of its own volition, and sometimes  contrary to the conscious thought decision. Thank you.

Now I am struggling to remember how this affects the subject under discussion in this thread! 

I have already covered this in the 'Faith' thread.

You seem to have missed the 'placebo' effect and the fact that leaving it to the unconscious makes for better decisions. Ref my thread 26 above.

***********************************************

  "It's not what patients think will happen [that influences outcomes] it's what the nonconscious mind anticipates despite any conscious thoughts. This mechanism is automatic, fast and powerful, and does not depend on deliberation and judgment.

...shown that people do indeed make optimal decisions—but only when their unconscious brain makes the choice.

...most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget.

************************************************

You really think these are small matters to be dismissed casually?! And it should be obvious how relying on the unconscious relates to 'faith'.  And we are just beginning to  scratch the surface in this area.

Yes, but that doesn't alter the fact that the subconscious mind is taking into consideration all the religious stuff that has been fed to it as if it were fact. Remember that the experiments you have told me about were with real external stimuli, not just recounted stories.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hi again Sriram,

I have now read the articles and learned that when subjected to external stimuli the subconscious can indeed come to a right/wrong decision of its own volition, and sometimes  contrary to the conscious thought decision. Thank you.

Now I am struggling to remember how this affects the subject under discussion in this thread! 

I have already covered this in the 'Faith' thread.

You seem to have missed the 'placebo' effect and the fact that leaving it to the unconscious makes for better decisions. Ref my thread 26 above.

***********************************************

  "It's not what patients think will happen [that influences outcomes] it's what the nonconscious mind anticipates despite any conscious thoughts. This mechanism is automatic, fast and powerful, and does not depend on deliberation and judgment.

...shown that people do indeed make optimal decisions—but only when their unconscious brain makes the choice.

...most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget.

************************************************

You really think these are small matters to be dismissed casually?! And it should be obvious how relying on the unconscious relates to 'faith'.  And we are just beginning to  scratch the surface in this area.

Yes, but that doesn't alter the fact that the subconscious mind is taking into consideration all the religious stuff that has been fed to it as if it were fact. Remember that the experiments you have told me about were with real external stimuli, not just recounted stories.

You think philosophical naturalism is a fact.
What scientific facts can possibly affect us on the human level?
What scientific facts do we need to make us happy or unhappy on any other basis than I'm alive and i'm not (too) ill?

[trippymonkey]

Why do certain types of Christians think NON-Christians are somehow stupid, ignorant or 'refuse' to see the Truth???

Could it have anything to do with such people asking questions like this, Nick?     Or I wonder whether it something to do with the fact that some non-Christians make it very plain that this is how they view Christians.

Do you mean ALL non-Christians & are lumping theists in there too? I'm not an atheist but I do resent being treated as some resistant idiot who can't see 'the Truth' if it smacked me in the gob ?!!?!?!?

I very often wonder if some here know as much about the 'opposition' as they THINK they do about their OWN faiths.