You can live with hope or you can live without hope.

[Leonard James]

Nah! The Jews managed it thousands of years before Jesus was born.

Moses seems to have had a friendship with God anyway 😉

Even Noah seems to have got to know him.

Before that, Adam and Eve seem to have known him quite intimately.

Christianity likes to perpetrate the myth that knowledge of God is exclusively theirs, against all the evidence. ( using the OT as evidence)

Let's see Sass argue out of that one! 

[Sassy]

There lies the error, Len.

If you were trying to convince yourself then you had no faith in what you believed.
You should never be the person trying to convince yourself. You can do nothing of yourself.  You needed to remember you cannot succeed in your own strength. You needed to do everything through Christ...

But I couldn't believe what Jesus said, no matter how hard I tried, so I prayed for help. None came.

I believe you, Leonard.
But what help did you want/expect to come?

[Sassy]

We all need hope. I prefer mine to be realistic rather than fantastic.

So you believe the Christians hope is 'FANTASTIC'? Why is that?

My preference is to remain grounded, tethered to reality by valuing the disciplined ethos characterised by scientific methods. Anyone who actually cares about whether their beliefs are true or not would want to stay focused and not wander far from what is well evidenced through research I would have thought. If you wander too far you risk ending up in a fantasy land of baseless beliefs.

A man gets tied up to the ground he gives the world it's saddest sound, it's saddest sound....

Scientific methods do not and cannot represent the truth from God or the creation and Christ. Fantasy is what we create but what the bible does is reveal the truth and power of God. Your reply does not really represent what I asked.... Why do you believe what the Christians hope for to be fantastic?

Because any belief not derived from evidence is fantasy, by definition. If there were any evidence for a god, then 'goddidit' would be a leading theory in cosmology.  As it is, there is no such evidence, so goddidit is not even a theory, never mind a leading one.  Goddidit, is therefore, is an indulgence, a fantasy indulged for psychological reasons, but not a rational explanation based on evidence.

I believe you are fooling yourself. God has never been out of the running regarding the creation and existence of the world and mankind.
You denying the truth that God platys an integral part of mans life and belief is really the illusion you create.
The evidence is that those who believe have prayers answered and miracles happen.

[Sassy]

Christians chose the former...


Is it just about hope? No it isn't.
But the truth is God has a much better plan for our lives and most people are just to scared to let go of the reins and let someone else make the plans and decisions for them.

A number of threads on the forum read like a battle of keeping your own independence from God so mocking those who would rather depend on God. What options are there?
What do YOU  really know about God when it comes to making that choice?
A choice we all make sometime in our life whether  it is a conscious choice or not.

There is a saying "God helps those who help themselves"

And God help them who get caught helping themselves.

I'm a great believer in taking the initiative and making your own plans and decisions and helping those you meet on your path if you feel called to do so.

All this stuff about it being wrong to be independant and to sit about waiting for God to sort out your life for you, doesn't sound right to me.

Being independent?  Do you know Rose, I am beginning to see how some unbelievers are thinking so wrongly about these things
How does believing and knowing God stop us making plans or decisions?
How do you think a believer could sit and  wait around waiting for God to make decisions and plans?  God is about us living life to the full not becoming robots.

I am suspicious that it is all ( being dependant on God )  some ruse to allow other religious people to influence your choices and is to open to manipulation.

I never knew people thought as you do and find it very strange.
Where did you get such ideas from?

I think you should make your own plans and decisions, independently and then use what you are good at, to help those around you or fulfill what you feel your calling is.

I'm not about to be relinquishing any reins or decisions to the influence of any religion, now or in the foreseeable future.

As far as Christianity goes , if you did then you would be the first to do so, if you did. I am amazes you have such a wrong outlook at such things...

If God is your "Heavenly Father" then children still need to aim to be "independant " adults.

So God should remove your food and mine because we are adults?
You really don't understand the nature of God being the Father.
If God did not provide all would be dead...

I tend to think all this "surrender your decisions and plans to God" is an excuse for various religious human beings to gain an influence over your life and gives them a sort of justification for it.

I'm a cynic when it comes to surrendering independence.

You have it all wrong... Rose go study Christianity because your ideas are way over the top....

[Sassy]

Why do certain types of Christians think NON-Christians are somehow stupid, ignorant or 'refuse' to see the Truth???

For myself...I personally have not found that to be the case.

Stupidity, refusal or being ignorant does not stop you finding Christ.
It is because man looks through the natural to find God and the knowledge of science etc. But the truth of God is simple and is found
through humbling ourselves and finding Gods way of calling man to himself. Man cannot do it, through his own understanding, his own will or strength. Christ is the ONLY way to know God.

Nah! The Jews managed it thousands of years before Jesus was born.

The jews had a covenant and if they obey the Law fully they do come to know God.
King David... Take not thy Holy Spirit from us. But that covenant was for the Jews NOT YOU or anyone else./ That covenant also promised the Messiah so the Jews knew God because they believed his words about Christ,. So you are wrong. You are not a Jew you need Christ,.

Moses seems to have had a friendship with God anyway 😉

God rescued the Jews using Moses because of his covenant with Abraham.
You appear not to understand the truth.

Even Noah seems to have got to know him.

Noah knew God before the LAW and so did Abraham....

Before that, Adam and Eve seem to have known him quite intimately.

Yep BEFORE THE FALL...

Christianity likes to perpetrate the myth that knowledge of God is exclusively theirs, against all the evidence. ( using the OT as evidence)

RUBBISH... Christians are really JEWS. You need to read the bible with correct understanding of the new covenant which included everyone and the Jews....

[torridon]

Because any belief not derived from evidence is fantasy, by definition. If there were any evidence for a god, then 'goddidit' would be a leading theory in cosmology.  As it is, there is no such evidence, so goddidit is not even a theory, never mind a leading one.  Goddidit, is therefore, is an indulgence, a fantasy indulged for psychological reasons, but not a rational explanation based on evidence.

I believe you are fooling yourself. God has never been out of the running regarding the creation and existence of the world and mankind.
You denying the truth that God platys an integral part of mans life and belief is really the illusion you create.
The evidence is that those who believe have prayers answered and miracles happen.

Prayer and miracles don't really meet the standard of evidence you would expect in a scientific context.  It's patchy, not consistent, and probably these phenomena find a truer explanation through psychology and the placebo effect. For instance if you go to Lourdes you might see crutches left behind by people who believe they were miraculously cured, but in reality might have just found there the necessary self-belief to cast aside their walking aid.  We don't get amputees coming home from Lourdes with suddenly regrown limbs. This suggests the healing power of prayer is a natural power already resident within the minds of all humans. Also this phenomenon is culturally widespread, it is not confined to Abrahamic faiths, probably most alleged miracles take place in other faith contexts, particularly in Hinduism and Sikhism.  So I grant you, belief in God can be a beneficial thing but that doesn't make god actually exist in any normal sense of the word.

[floo]

A string of posts from Sass who knows what she is talking about. Yet another pig has just flown passed my window!  

[Alan Burns]

Why do certain types of Christians think NON-Christians are somehow stupid, ignorant or 'refuse' to see the Truth???

For myself...I personally have not found that to be the case.

Stupidity, refusal or being ignorant does not stop you finding Christ.
It is because man looks through the natural to find God and the knowledge of science etc. But the truth of God is simple and is found
through humbling ourselves and finding Gods way of calling man to himself. Man cannot do it, through his own understanding, his own will or strength. Christ is the ONLY way to know God.

Nah! The Jews managed it thousands of years before Jesus was born.

Moses seems to have had a friendship with God anyway 😉

Even Noah seems to have got to know him.

Before that, Adam and Eve seem to have known him quite intimately.

Christianity likes to perpetrate the myth that knowledge of God is exclusively theirs, against all the evidence. ( using the OT as evidence)

Sass is quite right in this.

God initially made Himself known through inspired prophets in the OT, and finally made Himself known through Jesus in the NT.  Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and no one who knows of Jesus can get to heaven if they reject Him.

[floo]

Why do certain types of Christians think NON-Christians are somehow stupid, ignorant or 'refuse' to see the Truth???

For myself...I personally have not found that to be the case.

Stupidity, refusal or being ignorant does not stop you finding Christ.
It is because man looks through the natural to find God and the knowledge of science etc. But the truth of God is simple and is found
through humbling ourselves and finding Gods way of calling man to himself. Man cannot do it, through his own understanding, his own will or strength. Christ is the ONLY way to know God.

Nah! The Jews managed it thousands of years before Jesus was born.

Moses seems to have had a friendship with God anyway 😉

Even Noah seems to have got to know him.

Before that, Adam and Eve seem to have known him quite intimately.

Christianity likes to perpetrate the myth that knowledge of God is exclusively theirs, against all the evidence. ( using the OT as evidence)

Sass is quite right in this.

God initially made Himself known through inspired prophets in the OT, and finally made Himself known through Jesus in the NT.  Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and no one who knows of Jesus can get to heaven if they reject Him.

As I have asked many times, if it exists why does it play stupid beggars and not make its existence clear to all in an irrefutable way? Because it probably doesn't exist and is a human creation, an explanation which seems tick the boxes.

[Nearly Sane]

As I have asked many times, if it exists why does it play stupid beggars and not make its existence clear to all in an irrefutable way? Because it probably doesn't exist and is a human creation, an explanation which seems tick the boxes.

To be fair, people like Alan Burns, Hope, Sassy etc on here think that it has made its existence clear in irrefutable ways. they do not really understand why those of us who don't believe cannot see it.

[Alan Burns]

As I have asked many times, if it exists why does it play stupid beggars and not make its existence clear to all in an irrefutable way? Because it probably doesn't exist and is a human creation, an explanation which seems tick the boxes.

I do not presume to know why things are as they are, because my knowledge is too limited to know the whole truth.  I have to accept reality as it is, and I accept the knowledge of God's love for us.

[Rhiannon]

Because any belief not derived from evidence is fantasy, by definition. If there were any evidence for a god, then 'goddidit' would be a leading theory in cosmology.  As it is, there is no such evidence, so goddidit is not even a theory, never mind a leading one.  Goddidit, is therefore, is an indulgence, a fantasy indulged for psychological reasons, but not a rational explanation based on evidence.

I believe you are fooling yourself. God has never been out of the running regarding the creation and existence of the world and mankind.
You denying the truth that God platys an integral part of mans life and belief is really the illusion you create.
The evidence is that those who believe have prayers answered and miracles happen.

Prayer and miracles don't really meet the standard of evidence you would expect in a scientific context.  It's patchy, not consistent, and probably these phenomena find a truer explanation through psychology and the placebo effect. For instance if you go to Lourdes you might see crutches left behind by people who believe they were miraculously cured, but in reality might have just found there the necessary self-belief to cast aside their walking aid.  We don't get amputees coming home from Lourdes with suddenly regrown limbs. This suggests the healing power of prayer is a natural power already resident within the minds of all humans. Also this phenomenon is culturally widespread, it is not confined to Abrahamic faiths, probably most alleged miracles take place in other faith contexts, particularly in Hinduism and Sikhism.  So I grant you, belief in God can be a beneficial thing but that doesn't make god actually exist in any normal sense of the word.

Yes, I agree, belief can have a hugely powerful effect on the body.

I never understand why Christians think healing as a result of prayer is the product of a just and loving God. A god that cures those in his club but not those outside it? No thanks.

[Rhiannon]

As I have asked many times, if it exists why does it play stupid beggars and not make its existence clear to all in an irrefutable way? Because it probably doesn't exist and is a human creation, an explanation which seems tick the boxes.

To be fair, people like Alan Burns, Hope, Sassy etc on here think that it has made its existence clear in irrefutable ways. they do not really understand why those of us who don't believe cannot see it.

That is spot on, NS. Trying to use scripture and messing with scientific ideas isn't going to help us on the way to enlightenment though.

[Nearly Sane]

That is spot on, NS. Trying to use scripture and messing with scientific ideas isn't going to help us on the way to enlightenment though.

I can understand the scripture bit, if it's about explaining how they feel, or how they see things. And I can understand why Alan Burns goes down the route of consciousness as an argument for there being something different - though it tends to lead to having to ignore the actual science. Whoever hasn't thought to themselves what a piece of the work is a human, and felt dizzy staring into the abyss of even thinking about thinking seems to me the poorer for it and I can see that giving the abyss a name can feel right to some but my abyss is nameless.

[Rhiannon]

That is spot on, NS. Trying to use scripture and messing with scientific ideas isn't going to help us on the way to enlightenment though.

I can understand the scripture bit, if it's about explaining how they feel, or how they see things. And I can understand why Alan Burns goes down the route of consciousness as an argument for there being something different - though it tends to lead to having to ignore the actual science. Whoever hasn't thought to themselves what a piece of the work is a human, and felt dizzy staring into the abyss of even thinking about thinking seems to me the poorer for it and I can see that giving the abyss a name can feel right to some but my abyss is nameless.

Quoting scripture in context, yes. Not mass cut and paste.

Pondering what it means to be human is what sets us apart - cats do not ponder the nature of catness. But to try and dress that up as scientific proof of a soul is impossible. So much better just to say, I believe this but I can't prove it and leave others to their own truths.

[Leonard James]

To be fair, people like Alan Burns, Hope, Sassy etc on here think that it has made its existence clear in irrefutable ways. they do not really understand why those of us who don't believe cannot see it.

True! And until they accept that those ways are NOT irrefutable, they will remain ensnared.

[Alien]

...

Yes, I agree, belief can have a hugely powerful effect on the body.

I never understand why Christians think healing as a result of prayer is the product of a just and loving God. A god that cures those in his club but not those outside it? No thanks.

Those in his club? Is that what Scripture teaches? Please point me to where it says that. Ta.

[floo]

As I have asked many times, if it exists why does it play stupid beggars and not make its existence clear to all in an irrefutable way? Because it probably doesn't exist and is a human creation, an explanation which seems tick the boxes.

To be fair, people like Alan Burns, Hope, Sassy etc on here think that it has made its existence clear in irrefutable ways. they do not really understand why those of us who don't believe cannot see it.

They obviously don't understand the meaning of the word 'irrefutable', in that case!

[BashfulAnthony]

To be fair, people like Alan Burns, Hope, Sassy etc on here think that it has made its existence clear in irrefutable ways. they do not really understand why those of us who don't believe cannot see it.

True! And until they accept that those ways are NOT irrefutable, they will remain ensnared.

Again your offensive suggestion that intelligent people are ensnared:  what arrogance;  and only such enlightened people as yourself have escaped.  Get real!

[trippymonkey]

BA
Can one undersatnd the Bible & yet NOT be a Christian?

[floo]

BA
Can one undersatnd the Bible & yet NOT be a Christian?

Absolutely!

[BashfulAnthony]

BA
Can one undersatnd the Bible & yet NOT be a Christian?

Well, I doubt, very much, that any atheist here does understand it, because they don't know it.  It has taken me a life-time of study and consideration, and I am not pretentious enough to say I understand it all.  It is about forming what seems to each individual the right course, and to keep on searching.  And even if you achieve a comprehensive understanding of what is being said, only then you can make up your mind, either way, though there are always going to be doubts lurking.  So, I guess, the answer to your question is "yes," but only with the proviso that you do actually do understand it:  but I suppose that could also be interpreted as a likely "no."     

[trippymonkey]

OK So one CAN understand its messages etc & STILL be a non-Christian.??

[BashfulAnthony]

OK So one CAN understand its messages etc & STILL be a non-Christian.??

Of course.  Nobody is suggesting you have to be a certain thing merely on the basis that you understand it.

[trippymonkey]

BA
Thing is you DO seem to say ALL atheists DON'T understand the Bible so that's why I asked....