Right & Wrong

[trippymonkey]

Doesn't it go along with some quote about....

If a pebble drops into a pool of water & nobody sees it, did it happen?

Or something along those lines. If not witnessed , who cares. If anybody has the correct quote...... PLEASE ?!!?!?!?!

Nick

[Shaker]

It's usually "If a tree falls over in a forest with no one to hear it, does it make a sound?"

[trippymonkey]

AAH Thanks YES That's it !!
I would say YES It Does make a sound because that's what happens even if there's nobody there to hear it. Doesn't make any difference.

N

[Rhiannon]

But does a mathematical law have any meaning if there is nobody to understand it?

[trippymonkey]

Are we mixing MEANING with USEFULNESS ?

[Rhiannon]

I don't know. How can anything have meaning if nobody is there to understand it? If we need to understand it for it to be 'true' and there is a doubt about whether we perceive our existence correctly, then there are no certain truths.

I think. 

As for the falling tree, yes it makes a sound, because it will be observed by the rest of the life forms in the forest. A tree falling in a desert with no other life forms around though?

[trippymonkey]

It wouldn't matter, would it? No lifeforms to fall onto.

[Leonard James]

I don't know. How can anything have meaning if nobody is there to understand it? If we need to understand it for it to be 'true' and there is a doubt about whether we perceive our existence correctly, then there are no certain truths.

I think. 

As for the falling tree, yes it makes a sound, because it will be observed by the rest of the life forms in the forest. A tree falling in a desert with no other life forms around though?

It would still cause the same air-pressure waves (sound) whether somebody could here it or not.

[torridon]

AAH Thanks YES That's it !!
I would say YES It Does make a sound because that's what happens even if there's nobody there to hear it. Doesn't make any difference.

N

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Likewise, the sound of a tree falling is in the brain of the hearer, more specifically in the auditory cortex. 

Sound is a interpretive cerebral phenomenon that derives from patterns of airborne compression waves. The compression waves themselves are completely silent. Like everything else, sound is all in the mind.

[Leonard James]

AAH Thanks YES That's it !!
I would say YES It Does make a sound because that's what happens even if there's nobody there to hear it. Doesn't make any difference.

N

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Likewise, the sound of a tree falling is in the brain of the hearer, more specifically in the auditory cortex. 

Sound is a interpretive cerebral phenomenon that derives from patterns of airborne compression waves. The compression waves themselves are completely silent. Like everything else, sound is all in the mind.

Spot on!

[Udayana]

Re mathematical truths.

We can know whether mathematical statements are true or false because they are made within systems which we have defined rigorously, with known axioms. eg for Jeremy's example within the system of number theory.

Similarly with science, we build models trying to best represent the world that we experience, and can get predictive results using those models. Those results are correct or not (or sometimes undecidable) within those well defined models, but whether they are absolutely true or false, in reality, we can never know. In practice we develop a model and stick with it if it proves useful, until we find a more useful one.

Other philosophies are available.

[Rhiannon]

I don't know. How can anything have meaning if nobody is there to understand it? If we need to understand it for it to be 'true' and there is a doubt about whether we perceive our existence correctly, then there are no certain truths.

I think. 

As for the falling tree, yes it makes a sound, because it will be observed by the rest of the life forms in the forest. A tree falling in a desert with no other life forms around though?

It would still cause the same air-pressure waves (sound) whether somebody could here it or not.

But do the sound waves have meaning? If there is no mind (as Torridon points out) to experience and interpret them then is it really still making a sound?

[Leonard James]

I don't know. How can anything have meaning if nobody is there to understand it? If we need to understand it for it to be 'true' and there is a doubt about whether we perceive our existence correctly, then there are no certain truths.

I think. 

As for the falling tree, yes it makes a sound, because it will be observed by the rest of the life forms in the forest. A tree falling in a desert with no other life forms around though?

It would still cause the same air-pressure waves (sound) whether somebody could here it or not.

But do the sound waves have meaning? If there is no mind (as Torridon points out) to experience and interpret them then is it really still making a sound?

Sound is simply our brain's way of interpreting the pressure waves caused by the tree falling. So it is still producing the waves but if there is no sentient creature with eardrums to perceive them, then you can say it is not making a sound.

Complicated, ain't it? 

[Rhiannon]

Exactly. So mathematical truths have no meaning without minds to understand them. And given that we can't really be sure of the nature of our existence, it seems to me that we can't really know that mathematical laws (for example) really are true. But our perception is that they are, and we function better in our understanding of the world around us if we have these laws, so it is usually beneficial to act as though these are infallible truths.

[Leonard James]

Exactly. So mathematical truths have no meaning without minds to understand them. And given that we can't really be sure of the nature of our existence, it seems to me that we can't really know that mathematical laws (for example) really are true. But our perception is that they are, and we function better in our understanding of the world around us if we have these laws, so it is usually beneficial to act as though these are infallible truths.

Curiouser and curiouser! I suppose maths is nothing more than a human conception helping us to count, and doesn't have any existence outside our brains! 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Me,

What is this thread about! Anyway isn't maths a totally natural thing, without us it would still exist, nature uses it all the time, although a tree might call it a different name, yes I do believe tree's communicate.

What is the sound of one hand clapping

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Me,

What is this thread about! Anyway isn't maths a totally natural thing, without us it would still exist, nature uses it all the time, although a tree might call it a different name, yes I do believe tree's communicate.

What is the sound of one hand clapping

Gonnagle.

I don't think nature uses it at all, Gonners. The tree growth molecules and all the rest of its genes just go about their business with no regard for maths.

I suppose the sound will be half a clap, but my imagination breaks down there.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

I am thinking more about how a tree grows, how it divides, multiplies, a living cell does the same thing, the geometry of a snowflake, I think the shells of snails exhibit a certain symmetry made famous by a philosopher whose name escapes me.

Of course it is us who have gave names to these phenomenon but it would still exist without us.

One hand clapping, no such thing, and of course a tree falling does make a sound, the tree hears it

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

I am thinking more about how a tree grows, how it divides, multiplies, a living cell does the same thing, the geometry of a snowflake, I think the shells of snails exhibit a certain symmetry made famous by a philosopher whose name escapes me.

Of course it is us who have gave names to these phenomenon but it would still exist without us.

One hand clapping, no such thing, and of course a tree falling does make a sound, the tree hears it

Gonnagle.

It's all a great big "unknown" to us, Gonners. But we humans hate to admit we don't know, so we often invent answers, just to get the question out of the way. And if we can invent kudos for ourselves at the same time, so much the better! 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Absolutely no argument there old son

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Leonard,

I am thinking more about how a tree grows, how it divides, multiplies, a living cell does the same thing, the geometry of a snowflake, I think the shells of snails exhibit a certain symmetry made famous by a philosopher whose name escapes me.

Of course it is us who have gave names to these phenomenon but it would still exist without us.

One hand clapping, no such thing, and of course a tree falling does make a sound, the tree hears it

Gonnagle.

I believe much of creation follows mathematical patterns. But does it understand and observe the laws that govern these? Does a snail understand the spiral on its shell? And do we know better than it does?

What is 'sound' to a tree?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

That is one of the wonderful things I like about science, a scientist can study just one discipline, what does sound mean to a tree, there are studies that suggest playing music to plants helps, what kind of music would a tree like? Mud! Trees like Mud

Gonnagle.

Gonnagle.

[torridon]

I don't know. How can anything have meaning if nobody is there to understand it? If we need to understand it for it to be 'true' and there is a doubt about whether we perceive our existence correctly, then there are no certain truths.

I think. 

As for the falling tree, yes it makes a sound, because it will be observed by the rest of the life forms in the forest. A tree falling in a desert with no other life forms around though?

It would still cause the same air-pressure waves (sound) whether somebody could here it or not.

But do the sound waves have meaning? If there is no mind (as Torridon points out) to experience and interpret them then is it really still making a sound?

A brain is something that draws meaning out of the cosmic swirl around it. Patterns of compression waves become rendered into sound, patterns in electromagnetic radiation are translated into a sense of sight, chemical signatures on the tongue become something tasty, or not, as the case may be.  Throw all manner of stuff at it, the brain sublimely, effortlessly, seamlessly makes a constant stream of multimodal experience out of it, forms of meaning with which we are all familiar from birth and which we accept unhesitatingly as an honest account to what is out there, although it is not, it is all derivative fabrication done in a manner which our particular brains have evolved and perfected over the ages.  If we ever encountered intelligent aliens, we may well discover that they have brains that deliver forms of experience entirely unimaginable and uncommunicable to us. Scary thought for the day.

[jeremyp]

But is anything really, truly knowable?

The square root of two cannot be expressed as the ratio of two whole numbers.

But that's meaningless unless someone is able to observe it.

No it isn't.

Why?

Why not?