Author Topic: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?  (Read 26892 times)

Owlswing

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2015, 10:41:42 PM »
The abominable dentist, one assumes, sees killing for fun as an entirely valid reason.
... a stance belied, I'd have thought, by the fact that he has practically bitten off his own tongue in his haste to apologise and has apparently gone into hiding. If killing a lion is entirely valid, why not hang around and defend his actions in public?


Quite simple! Becasue the public are against him, they are issuing death threats against him and he has got the local police trying to find out who is threatening him spo that legal action can be taken against them!

He doesn't like when HE is the one on the wrong end of the gun, does he?
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Rhiannon

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2015, 11:03:18 PM »

All with a single shot of a crossbow.


This is not true.  The lion survived the crossbow shot and had to be tracked down and shot again but with a gun.  The procedure took over 40 hours. 

I honestly cannot comprehend the mentality that thinks a lion's head looks better hung on a wall than attached to a living lion.

Agreed. It was an agonising death.

Rhiannon

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2015, 11:06:50 PM »
LA,

Quote
I think it is a perfectly reasonable question - there are plenty of things going on in the world that are causing tremendous suffering to human beings - while we are quite happy to kill animals for various reasons.

Bingo.

I would also remind a few here that the head of PETA, Ingrid Newkirk, argued that the dentist who killed the lion should be “hanged.”

::)

Leaving aside the PETA woman (he won't be hanged), the revulsion stems from the fact this despicable act exemplifies the worst of humanity's pathetic, self-gratifying attitude to the natural world. I for one find it troubling for our future as a whole that there are people - wealthy people from powerful societies - who think that this is what other creatures are for.

Shaker

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2015, 11:56:55 PM »
Leaving aside the PETA woman (he won't be hanged), the revulsion stems from the fact this despicable act exemplifies the worst of humanity's pathetic, self-gratifying attitude to the natural world. I for one find it troubling for our future as a whole that there are people - wealthy people from powerful societies - who think that this is what other creatures are for.
Remember though that this individual is only a particularly egregious specimen of the sort of attitude that most human animals take toward non-human animals anyway as a matter of course every single day, as things, objects, commodities who either don't possess consciousness, sentience and emotion at all - a few scientists still defend the Cartesian line, though they're a tiny and dwindling band - or if they do, they don't really matter.

This lamentable tooth extractor has the money to have bought himself a luxury trophy hunting holiday in Africa, but in terms of basic mindset I can't see how his attitude is in any way different to somebody who sits down to a meal containing meat, which is another example of an activity which is pointless in being unnecessary (people need to eat; they don't need to eat flesh) but carried out gratuitously, as it were, purely for self-gratification.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 12:07:09 AM by Shaker »
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2015, 05:46:28 AM »

All with a single shot of a crossbow.


This is not true.  The lion survived the crossbow shot and had to be tracked down and shot again but with a gun.  The procedure took over 40 hours. 

I honestly cannot comprehend the mentality that thinks a lion's head looks better hung on a wall than attached to a living lion.

Oh dear.

When writing on this forum you should never forget that there are readers who will assume that your words are to be taken only literally.

Jeremyp:
The probabable consequence of a single shot from a crossbow is the deaths of several lions.

How is that not true?

Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Leonard James

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2015, 07:10:01 AM »
Leaving aside the PETA woman (he won't be hanged), the revulsion stems from the fact this despicable act exemplifies the worst of humanity's pathetic, self-gratifying attitude to the natural world. I for one find it troubling for our future as a whole that there are people - wealthy people from powerful societies - who think that this is what other creatures are for.
Remember though that this individual is only a particularly egregious specimen of the sort of attitude that most human animals take toward non-human animals anyway as a matter of course every single day, as things, objects, commodities who either don't possess consciousness, sentience and emotion at all - a few scientists still defend the Cartesian line, though they're a tiny and dwindling band - or if they do, they don't really matter.

This lamentable tooth extractor has the money to have bought himself a luxury trophy hunting holiday in Africa, but in terms of basic mindset I can't see how his attitude is in any way different to somebody who sits down to a meal containing meat, which is another example of an activity which is pointless in being unnecessary (people need to eat; they don't need to eat flesh) but carried out gratuitously, as it were, purely for self-gratification.

 ::)

So according to shaker all the meat eaters on here are as bad as the dentist.

Shaker always takes it a step to far, IMO.

Most of us are hypocritical enough to waive morality when it comes to killing other animals to eat.

Evolution-wise, of course, we have developed as an omnivorous species, but evolution knows nothing of morals, which are a human invention. If we are going to argue that killing other animals unnecessarily is immoral, then we have to face the fact that eating meat is immoral ... because we can be quite healthy as vegetarians.

However, it's a moral maze, because  there is no justification in separating plants from animals in this respect. They are living organisms, and we curtail their lives to eat them.

In short, morality is a mess!  :(

floo

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2015, 08:34:15 AM »
Hunting big game animals for fun is SICK. Hunting them with a crossbow is even sicker, as it is likely to be a more painful death. I hope that piece of scum loses his practice and is vilified for the rest of his life!

Rhiannon

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2015, 08:47:41 AM »
Leaving aside the PETA woman (he won't be hanged), the revulsion stems from the fact this despicable act exemplifies the worst of humanity's pathetic, self-gratifying attitude to the natural world. I for one find it troubling for our future as a whole that there are people - wealthy people from powerful societies - who think that this is what other creatures are for.
Remember though that this individual is only a particularly egregious specimen of the sort of attitude that most human animals take toward non-human animals anyway as a matter of course every single day, as things, objects, commodities who either don't possess consciousness, sentience and emotion at all - a few scientists still defend the Cartesian line, though they're a tiny and dwindling band - or if they do, they don't really matter.

This lamentable tooth extractor has the money to have bought himself a luxury trophy hunting holiday in Africa, but in terms of basic mindset I can't see how his attitude is in any way different to somebody who sits down to a meal containing meat, which is another example of an activity which is pointless in being unnecessary (people need to eat; they don't need to eat flesh) but carried out gratuitously, as it were, purely for self-gratification.

 ::)

So according to shaker all the meat eaters on here are as bad as the dentist.

Shaker always takes it a step to far, IMO.

Most of us are hypocritical enough to waive morality when it comes to killing other animals to eat.

Evolution-wise, of course, we have developed as an omnivorous species, but evolution knows nothing of morals, which are a human invention. If we are going to argue that killing other animals unnecessarily is immoral, then we have to face the fact that eating meat is immoral ... because we can be quite healthy as vegetarians.

However, it's a moral maze, because  there is no justification in separating plants from animals in this respect. They are living organisms, and we curtail their lives to eat them.

In short, morality is a mess!  :(

The difference between plants and animals us that the latter are sentient - they feel pain and fear. It's why many 'vegetarians' are happy to eat fish - the degree of sentience is believed to be lower.

My view is that I think more moral the person who hunts a bird or fish for his or her table than I do those who mindlessly eat industrially-farmed meat bought in little plastic pots from the supermarket because they are too squeamish to face the reality of where it comes from. But there can never be any morality in trophy hunting. Ever.

Shaker

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2015, 09:03:08 AM »
So according to shaker all the meat eaters on here are as bad as the dentist.
As I said (quite clearly, I thought, but evidently not clearly enough for some) the similarity is in the basic mindset of non-human animals as things, as objects, as commodities for human use and abuse, whose value - more often than not merely financial - is instrumental rather than intrinsic.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 09:10:50 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Spud

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2015, 09:24:37 AM »
Can someone please explain to me the uproar over the killing of Cecil the lion by an American hunter in Zimbabwe a couple days ago.

I really don't get it...
Its the fact that he is a dentist- someone who is meant to promote life...

Spud

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2015, 09:30:46 AM »
That's two American dentists I am not happy with. The other, a friend of a friend, tried to persuade me (during an en spec visit while on holiday) to let him file my teeth down on one side to make my bite more equal.

Owlswing

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2015, 09:35:01 AM »
That's two American dentists I am not happy with. The other, a friend of a friend, tried to persuade me (during an en spec visit while on holiday) to let him file my teeth down on one side to make my bite more equal.

For how much? Dollars-wise!
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Leonard James

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2015, 10:59:46 AM »


The difference between plants and animals us that the latter are sentient - they feel pain and fear. It's why many 'vegetarians' are happy to eat fish - the degree of sentience is believed to be lower.

Really? What is the evidence that fish feel pain less than other sentient creatures?

Quote
My view is that I think more moral the person who hunts a bird or fish for his or her table than I do those who mindlessly eat industrially-farmed meat bought in little plastic pots from the supermarket because they are too squeamish to face the reality of where it comes from.

I disagree, unless the hunter has no other recourse. He can cause great suffering to his prey on occasions, so unless he has to hunt to live the action is just as immoral.

We who buy and eat such food do so in the belief that it has been farmed and killed humanely, although I am well aware of the shortcomings of the meat industry.

Quote
But there can never be any morality in trophy hunting. Ever.

Total agreement. Such people are morons.

Gordon

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2015, 11:20:53 AM »
Looks like the Zimbabwe authorities are looking at extradition - wonder how the US authorities will react.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-33733722

Udayana

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2015, 11:27:54 AM »
There are valid arguments that allowing such trophy hunting, if managed correctly, can help conservation of species otherwise at risk.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33727540

The US Fish and Wildlife service will now investigate the hunt and over 100 thousand Americans have signed a petition calling for Palmer to be extradited out of the US. I assume that most of these are ordinarily supermarket meat eaters not normally much concerned with morality of meat eating.

It just seems to me that there is much more going on here than can be explained by:
Empathy /concern about cruelty
Animal rights
Conservation
Internet/social media use
...
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ad_orientem

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2015, 11:37:36 AM »
Leaving aside the PETA woman (he won't be hanged), the revulsion stems from the fact this despicable act exemplifies the worst of humanity's pathetic, self-gratifying attitude to the natural world. I for one find it troubling for our future as a whole that there are people - wealthy people from powerful societies - who think that this is what other creatures are for.
Remember though that this individual is only a particularly egregious specimen of the sort of attitude that most human animals take toward non-human animals anyway as a matter of course every single day, as things, objects, commodities who either don't possess consciousness, sentience and emotion at all - a few scientists still defend the Cartesian line, though they're a tiny and dwindling band - or if they do, they don't really matter.

This lamentable tooth extractor has the money to have bought himself a luxury trophy hunting holiday in Africa, but in terms of basic mindset I can't see how his attitude is in any way different to somebody who sits down to a meal containing meat, which is another example of an activity which is pointless in being unnecessary (people need to eat; they don't need to eat flesh) but carried out gratuitously, as it were, purely for self-gratification.

Maybe we should stop animals from eating other animals as well. Think of all the animal lives that we could save. Surely we can find protein substitutes for predators. Anyway, there is nothing immoral about eating meat. What is immoral is killing more than we can eat and killing for the pleasure of killing, such as in the case of the dentist and the lion.
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Shaker

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2015, 11:39:34 AM »
Maybe we should stop animals from eating other animals as well.
Good luck with that.
Quote
Anyway, there is nothing immoral about eating meat.

Yes there is. Reason coming up:

Quote
What is immoral is killing more than we can eat and killing for the pleasure of killing, such as in the case of the dentist and the lion.
Killing to eat meat is unnecessary (humans are not obligate carnivores), and therefore is killing for pleasure.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2015, 12:02:41 PM »
Yes there is.

That's because you're odd.


Killing to eat meat is unnecessary (humans are not obligate carnivores), and therefore is killing for pleasure.

False reasoning. Humans eat meat because it's by far the best and most accessible form of protein. The animals are killed for nourishment not pleasure.
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Shaker

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2015, 12:41:20 PM »
That's because you're odd.
There goes the Irony-O-Meter.

Quote
False reasoning. Humans eat meat because it's by far the best and most accessible form of protein. The animals are killed for nourishment not pleasure.
So if it's for "nourishment not pleasure", why not eat meat as-is instead of cooking it (which is to say, partially burning it) in a variety of ways with the addition of a variety of supplements and sauces?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2015, 12:58:06 PM »
Why not? Or don't you like your food to taste nice? Anyway, I know where you are trying to lead this but yet again it's false reasoning. The primary function is indeed nourishment and any pleasure is only in the eating, not the killing (well, for most normal people anyway).
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 01:02:17 PM by ad_orientem »
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Shaker

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2015, 12:59:12 PM »
Why not?
Because if eating meat is purely for nourishment not pleasure (as per your statement not quite an hour ago) then these things should be superfluous.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2015, 01:02:55 PM »
See above edited post.
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Shaker

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2015, 01:05:48 PM »
Anyway, I know where you are trying to lead this but yet again it's false reasoning.
Then explain, not assert, why this is so according to you.
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The primary function is indeed nourishment and any pleasure is only in the eating, not the killing (well, for most normal people anyway).
The point is that this individual is decidedly abnormal in that for his own gratification he killed an individual member of an endangered species for no other reason than the pleasure of killing it, since he didn't even plan to eat it.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2015, 01:10:23 PM »
Yes, I think there's something not quite normal in his hobby. Not the same as killing an animal for food. To suggest that they're the same is just clutching at straws by fanatics.
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Shaker

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Re: Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2015, 01:11:51 PM »
Yes, I think there's something not quite normal in his hobby. Not the same as killing an animal for food.

Which is equally unnecessary.

Quote
To suggest that they're the same is just clutching at straws by fanatics.
They are the same - neither serve any useful or meaningful purpose and are carried out entirely for self-gratification.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.