Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?

[Shaker]

Simply stating, or in your case repeating, that something is supposedly false reasoning doesn't fly until you specify what it is that's supposedly false and demonstrate that it actually is false.

As for your would-be points:

1. Meat is hard to get unless your idea of acquiring it consists of a trip to Sainsburys, i.e. getting somebody else to do your dirty work out of sight and out of mind. When was the last time you killed and butchered a cow personally?

2. What's taste got to do with anything? A few hours ago you said that food animals are killed for nourishment, not pleasure.

[Owlswing]

Simply stating, or in your case repeating, that something is supposedly false reasoning doesn't fly until you specify what it is that's supposedly false and demonstrate that it actually is false.

The dentition of humans shows that they are ominivores - if you like it eat it, if you don't leave it.

Veggies and vegans touting their messages and life-styles and demanding everyoine follow them are as irritating and annoyoing as evangelical Christians.

[BashfulAnthony]

Simply stating, or in your case repeating, that something is supposedly false reasoning doesn't fly until you specify what it is that's supposedly false and demonstrate that it actually is false.

The dentition of humans shows that they are ominivores - if you like it eat it, if you don't leave it.

Veggies and vegans touting their messages and life-styles and demanding everyoine follow them are as irritating and annoyoing as evangelical Christians.

I am a vegetarian but have never "demanded" anyone else follow my path; nor have I been subjected to anyone demanding I do it.  How many people demand you follow a vegetarian/vegan life-style?  Or is it just a sloppy, meaningless, assertion by you?

[Owlswing]

Simply stating, or in your case repeating, that something is supposedly false reasoning doesn't fly until you specify what it is that's supposedly false and demonstrate that it actually is false.

The dentition of humans shows that they are ominivores - if you like it eat it, if you don't leave it.

Veggies and vegans touting their messages and life-styles and demanding everyoine follow them are as irritating and annoyoing as evangelical Christians.

I am a vegetarian but have never "demanded" anyone else follow my path; nor have I been subjected to anyone demanding I do it.  How many people demand you follow a vegetarian/vegan life-style?  Or is it just a sloppy, meaningless, assertion by you?

Read the papers!

Of course - I had forgotten you never push anything do you!

[BashfulAnthony]

Simply stating, or in your case repeating, that something is supposedly false reasoning doesn't fly until you specify what it is that's supposedly false and demonstrate that it actually is false.

The dentition of humans shows that they are ominivores - if you like it eat it, if you don't leave it.

Veggies and vegans touting their messages and life-styles and demanding everyoine follow them are as irritating and annoyoing as evangelical Christians.

I am a vegetarian but have never "demanded" anyone else follow my path; nor have I been subjected to anyone demanding I do it.  How many people demand you follow a vegetarian/vegan life-style?  Or is it just a sloppy, meaningless, assertion by you?

Read the papers!

Of course - I had forgotten you never push anything do you!

Give me some example or other of what you say.  There' a heck of a lot to read in the papers to try ang find some obscure reference or other.

[Shaker]

Simply stating, or in your case repeating, that something is supposedly false reasoning doesn't fly until you specify what it is that's supposedly false and demonstrate that it actually is false.

The dentition of humans shows that they are ominivores - if you like it eat it, if you don't leave it.

Veggies and vegans touting their messages and life-styles and demanding everyoine follow them are as irritating and annoyoing as evangelical Christians.

I am a vegetarian but have never "demanded" anyone else follow my path; nor have I been subjected to anyone demanding I do it.  How many people demand you follow a vegetarian/vegan life-style?  Or is it just a sloppy, meaningless, assertion by you?

Nobody (save parents) can demand that anyone else follow a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle; I suspect that what's in play here is that when the facts are laid before people (which is easy enough to do) there's some pricking of uneasy consciences which provokes a defensive reaction.

[BashfulAnthony]

Simply stating, or in your case repeating, that something is supposedly false reasoning doesn't fly until you specify what it is that's supposedly false and demonstrate that it actually is false.

The dentition of humans shows that they are ominivores - if you like it eat it, if you don't leave it.

Veggies and vegans touting their messages and life-styles and demanding everyoine follow them are as irritating and annoyoing as evangelical Christians.

I am a vegetarian but have never "demanded" anyone else follow my path; nor have I been subjected to anyone demanding I do it.  How many people demand you follow a vegetarian/vegan life-style?  Or is it just a sloppy, meaningless, assertion by you?

Nobody (save parents) can demand that anyone else follow a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle; I suspect that what's in play here is that when the facts are laid before people (which is easy enough to do) there's some pricking of uneasy consciences which provokes a defensive reaction.

That's about the size of it!  I'm sure there are plenty of people who would espouse a vegetarian regime, because in their hearts they know it is the right way:  they are just too weak to follow it through.

[Owlswing]

Simply stating, or in your case repeating, that something is supposedly false reasoning doesn't fly until you specify what it is that's supposedly false and demonstrate that it actually is false.

The dentition of humans shows that they are ominivores - if you like it eat it, if you don't leave it.

Veggies and vegans touting their messages and life-styles and demanding everyoine follow them are as irritating and annoyoing as evangelical Christians.

I am a vegetarian but have never "demanded" anyone else follow my path; nor have I been subjected to anyone demanding I do it.  How many people demand you follow a vegetarian/vegan life-style?  Or is it just a sloppy, meaningless, assertion by you?

Read the papers!

Of course - I had forgotten you never push anything do you!

Give me some example or other of what you say.  There' a heck of a lot to read in the papers to try ang find some obscure reference or other.

Read the "foodie" section of just about any paper.

[Shaker]

Not sure it's weakness per se since it's easier to be vegetarian or vegan now than it's ever been. It may be unfamiliarity in many cases, since the vast majority of people are raised to wat meat; or it may be the wholly mistaken idea that a vegetarian diet is bland and boring, when the opposite is true.

[BashfulAnthony]

Not sure it's weakness per se since it's easier to be vegetarian or vegan now than it's ever been. It may be unfamiliarity in many cases, since the vast majority of people are raised to wat meat; or it may be the wholly mistaken idea that a vegetarian diet is bland and boring, when the opposite is true.

I think so many like a sausage roll, or bacon sandwich, etc, and haven't the "strength" to give them up, even though they know in their hearts what pain is caused to produce them.

[Owlswing]

Not sure it's weakness per se since it's easier to be vegetarian or vegan now than it's ever been. It may be unfamiliarity in many cases, since the vast majority of people are raised to wat meat; or it may be the wholly mistaken idea that a vegetarian diet is bland and boring, when the opposite is true.

My old boss ('old' as in when I worked) was a vegetarian and was always telling anyone who would listen the health benefits of the vegetarian diet - this was rather spoiled by her necking a handful of vitamin tablets to cover ewhat was mising in her veggie diet.

[BashfulAnthony]

Not sure it's weakness per se since it's easier to be vegetarian or vegan now than it's ever been. It may be unfamiliarity in many cases, since the vast majority of people are raised to wat meat; or it may be the wholly mistaken idea that a vegetarian diet is bland and boring, when the opposite is true.

My old boss ('old' as in when I worked) was a vegetarian and was always telling anyone who would listen the health benefits of the vegetarian diet - this was rather spoiled by her necking a handful of vitamin tablets to cover ewhat was mising in her veggie diet.

Vegetarian, or not, if you eat a well-balanced diet, available to vegetarians and non-vegetarians alike, you will not need supplements.

[Shaker]

Exactly so. A varied well-balanced vegetarian or vegan diet precludes vitamin supplements as they're wholly unnecessary. That's what your food is for - to provide you with all the vitamins and minerals you need.

In other words, unless you're pregnant or ill in some way, if you're taking vitamin and mineral supplements you're not feeding yourself properly, basically.

[BashfulAnthony]

This is. Not going to be a popular post but.......

I can kind of understand the game hunting concept.

Back when we lived in smaller tribes and predators were more of a problem, it was considered "manly" to kill something considered dangerous.

In fact some cultures believe you cannot be considered an adult man and marry until you have proved yourself.

Trophy hunting, I think bases some of its ideas on the idea of taking on and collecting animals that are considered big or dangerous.

I am aware that modern weapons make this more removed and that it doesn't mean as much as approaching a lion armed with just a spear.

I think that the people who do the trophy hunting are looking to satisfy an ancient urge.

One argument is that this " urge" can also come out in strange and violent ways when humans can't vent it.

This is one explanation for violent tendencies in society in general.

Thoughts?

"This is. Not going to be a popular post but......."   Correct Rose, and mainly because your argument does not address the issue of a wicked man who kills only for "sport," however you might be an apologist for him.

[BashfulAnthony]

This is. Not going to be a popular post but.......

I can kind of understand the game hunting concept.

Back when we lived in smaller tribes and predators were more of a problem, it was considered "manly" to kill something considered dangerous.

In fact some cultures believe you cannot be considered an adult man and marry until you have proved yourself.

Trophy hunting, I think bases some of its ideas on the idea of taking on and collecting animals that are considered big or dangerous.

I am aware that modern weapons make this more removed and that it doesn't mean as much as approaching a lion armed with just a spear.

I think that the people who do the trophy hunting are looking to satisfy an ancient urge.

One argument is that this " urge" can also come out in strange and violent ways when humans can't vent it.

This is one explanation for violent tendencies in society in general.

Thoughts?

"This is. Not going to be a popular post but......."   Correct Rose, and mainly because your argument does not address the issue of a wicked man who kills only for "sport," however you might be an apologist for him.

I'm looking at the idea that the driving instincts in human beings might not conform to what we might wish them to be.

We are talking here about a so-called civilised man, living an affluent life in a modern society, with absolutely no need to recourse to any primitive urges.  It is just wanton cruelty.

[BashfulAnthony]

This is. Not going to be a popular post but.......

I can kind of understand the game hunting concept.

Back when we lived in smaller tribes and predators were more of a problem, it was considered "manly" to kill something considered dangerous.

In fact some cultures believe you cannot be considered an adult man and marry until you have proved yourself.

Trophy hunting, I think bases some of its ideas on the idea of taking on and collecting animals that are considered big or dangerous.

I am aware that modern weapons make this more removed and that it doesn't mean as much as approaching a lion armed with just a spear.

I think that the people who do the trophy hunting are looking to satisfy an ancient urge.

One argument is that this " urge" can also come out in strange and violent ways when humans can't vent it.

This is one explanation for violent tendencies in society in general.

Thoughts?

"This is. Not going to be a popular post but......."   Correct Rose, and mainly because your argument does not address the issue of a wicked man who kills only for "sport," however you might be an apologist for him.

I'm looking at the idea that the driving instincts in human beings might not conform to what we might wish them to be.

We are talking here about a so-called civilised man, living an affluent life in a modern society, with absolutely no need to recourse to any primitive urges.  It is just wanton cruelty.

But if the basic animal instinct is there, who is to say we con overcome it by rational thought

It's something we recognise in other animal species, example cats
But maybe we are as much a slave to our basic onstincts as a cat but unable to recognise it because we think it can be wished away by logic

Yes, those primitive instincts may still be in us, but most of us suppress such instincts, without too much trouble, even if we are even aware of them  Others simply let themselves go to their urges, fully aware that they are base.  There is no excuse for a man like Palmer, simply none.

[Udayana]

...
I'm looking at the idea that the driving instincts in human beings might not conform to what we might wish them to be.

No doubt that the hunt was important in any tribal societies where people lived close to the land and with intimate knowledge of the wildlife they lived with and depended on. However even the traditional "lion killer" Maasai people desist from it unless  there is a direct conflict.

The "outrage" at the death of Cecil the lion is much keener in the US than in Africa, though most of those commenting would not have even heard of him before the killing. Palmer may have an "instinct" to aggrandize himself by slaughtering "wild"animals, but others feel the loss of the wildness already gone and have an instinct to preserve what remains.

[Rhiannon]

I can understand lots of things from an 'ancient urge' point of view. For example, I can understand a man wanting to have sex with his seventeen-year-old stepdaughter - a younger, fertile version of her mother. But we've moved on from our 'ancient urges' and understand that certain things aren't acceptable in a civilised society.

[Gonnagle]

Dearie Me,

Not my fault yer honour, evolution made me do it.

Did the dentist arsehole cry and lament over his fallen prey to ease the spirit of the Lion into the happy hunting ground, I doubt it!!

Gonnagle.

[OH MY WORLD!]

BA,
Are calling the first nations, the Metis and the Inuit of Canada, primitives? No, we are not primitives and those that hunt do so because they are responsible and very intelligent.  Those in the north CANNOT pay $12 for four oranges. Wild game, is healthy, traditional food and it keeps their children from starving to death. I promise you that neither of us could afford to be vegetarian if our traditional homeland was permafrost. I really hope you don't suggest the whites round up all the primitives and force them off their land and into the white cities and towns. Oh, and the northerners have the internet, yes, they have electricity and the wheel. I hope you won't suggest the whites force the first nations and Metis to stop hunting on their own land and force them to buy and live off of vegetables, in other words, eradicate our cultures and ways of life. And I know Jesus had no problem feeding people MEAT.

[Rhiannon]

I think the point about geography is valid. I'm interested in historical life including diet and as Northern Europeans our diet was heavily meat-based, for those that could afford it, or dairy-based - we have very little in the way of traditional vegetable cooking as found in the countries of Southern Europe with their abundance of fruit and vegetables. It is unreasonable to expect, say, Alaskans to be self-sufficient in a vegetable-based diet. It is also interesting I think that the far northern countries haven't lost the culture of hunting for dietary requirements (I believe ad-o and JC both do so) unlike those of us that have largely become divorced from the process of feeding ourselves.

[BashfulAnthony]

BA,
Are calling the first nations, the Metis and the Inuit of Canada, primitives? No, we are not primitives and those that hunt do so because they are responsible and very intelligent.  Those in the north CANNOT pay $12 for four oranges. Wild game, is healthy, traditional food and it keeps their children from starving to death. I promise you that neither of us could afford to be vegetarian if our traditional homeland was permafrost. I really hope you don't suggest the whites round up all the primitives and force them off their land and into the white cities and towns. Oh, and the northerners have the internet, yes, they have electricity and the wheel. I hope you won't suggest the whites force the first nations and Metis to stop hunting on their own land and force them to buy and live off of vegetables, in other words, eradicate our cultures and ways of life. And I know Jesus had no problem feeding people MEAT.

You clearly did not read this post of mine: M94,
"We are talking here about a so-called civilised man, living an affluent life in a modern society, with absolutely no need to recourse to any primitive urges.  It is just wanton cruelty."

Pretty clearly that does not apply to the Inuit and Metis, who are not part of the affluent society.

[ad_orientem]

Not sure it's weakness per se since it's easier to be vegetarian or vegan now than it's ever been. It may be unfamiliarity in many cases, since the vast majority of people are raised to wat meat; or it may be the wholly mistaken idea that a vegetarian diet is bland and boring, when the opposite is true.

My old boss ('old' as in when I worked) was a vegetarian and was always telling anyone who would listen the health benefits of the vegetarian diet - this was rather spoiled by her necking a handful of vitamin tablets to cover ewhat was mising in her veggie diet.

Vegetarian, or not, if you eat a well-balanced diet, available to vegetarians and non-vegetarians alike, you will not need supplements.

Simply not so.

[Shaker]

Not sure it's weakness per se since it's easier to be vegetarian or vegan now than it's ever been. It may be unfamiliarity in many cases, since the vast majority of people are raised to wat meat; or it may be the wholly mistaken idea that a vegetarian diet is bland and boring, when the opposite is true.

My old boss ('old' as in when I worked) was a vegetarian and was always telling anyone who would listen the health benefits of the vegetarian diet - this was rather spoiled by her necking a handful of vitamin tablets to cover ewhat was mising in her veggie diet.

Vegetarian, or not, if you eat a well-balanced diet, available to vegetarians and non-vegetarians alike, you will not need supplements.

Simply not so.

Don't be a bloody fool in defence of your addiction to meat, it'll make people think you've got early atherosclerosis coming on. Of course if you eat a varied and balanced diet there's no need for supplements - in vegetarian and even vegan terms rather a lot of Hindus and Buddhists and Jains have been thriving on this for several thousand years; and while admittedly it's hardly a stiff challenge, they know rather more about it than you do.

[L.A.]

Not sure it's weakness per se since it's easier to be vegetarian or vegan now than it's ever been. It may be unfamiliarity in many cases, since the vast majority of people are raised to wat meat; or it may be the wholly mistaken idea that a vegetarian diet is bland and boring, when the opposite is true.

My old boss ('old' as in when I worked) was a vegetarian and was always telling anyone who would listen the health benefits of the vegetarian diet - this was rather spoiled by her necking a handful of vitamin tablets to cover ewhat was mising in her veggie diet.

Vegetarian, or not, if you eat a well-balanced diet, available to vegetarians and non-vegetarians alike, you will not need supplements.

Simply not so.

Don't be a bloody fool in defence of your addiction to meat, it'll make people think you've got early atherosclerosis coming on. Of course if you eat a varied and balanced diet there's no need for supplements - in vegetarian and even vegan terms rather a lot of Hindus and Buddhists and Jains have been thriving on this for several thousand years; and while admittedly it's hardly a stiff challenge, they know rather more about it than you do.

I think it would be true to say that there are certain nutrients, notably some essential amino acids, that are not easy to obtain on a vegetarian diet. While this might not be too much of a problem for adults, it can be for children.