Why Has The Killing Of A Lion Spawned Widespread Outrage?

[Leonard James]

One result of his cruel actions is a huge increase in the donations to the conservation project that was working with Cecil the lion.

So Cecil didn't die in vain! That is good, but I would rather he hadn't died at all, and hope his killer is punished accordingly.

[L.A.]

I think it would be true to say that there are certain nutrients, notably some essential amino acids, that are not easy to obtain on a vegetarian diet. While this might not be too much of a problem for adults, it can be for children.

No, even that isn't true.

I don't know if you're being led astray by these occasional reports you hear of people living on cheese and tomato pizzas, crisps and Coke and the like - unimpeachably vegetarian in the strict sense, true, but hardly a broad, varied and balanced diet. Being a vegetarian/vegan in and of itself doesn't prevent anybody from being a clueless doofus about their diet any more than does being the lazy, thoughtless, shovel-it-in omnivore keeping Burger King in business on these shores; but personal experience as well as umpteen studies shows that vegetarians and vegans tend to be rather better informed about their diets as well as more adventurous, eating a broader range of food groups, and more interested in general health and fitness (such as not smoking and not drinking excessively, for example).

No, I was 'being led astray' by what I was taught in O level biology - and a brief check on the internet seems to confirm that this is still mainstream opinion.

[Anchorman]

We;ll soon be at the 'glorious twelfth' =- the time where twits in tweed blast the heck out of every grouse that hs the audacity to fly in front of their guns.
Those grouse don't have names.
Are they any less important than 'Cecil'?

[ad_orientem]

Well, you haven't done anything but assert.

One thing you certainly don't lack in your diet is irony, that's for sure.

My point was that meat always has been and remains the most effecient of protein and many vitamins and minerals for humans, which is a very good reason to eat it.

It's unnecessary to eat it when (a) eating it involves grotesque cruelty and (b) whatever it provides can be provided by means which don't involve grotesque cruelty. Therefore (a) is the immoral option and (b) the moral one. It's not difficult.

So don't give us any of that fanny about comparing killing for food with killing for trophy. They are simply not the same. As I said, it's unlike with unlike.

I've already explained why the comparison is not only direct but even obvious ... but I can understand why this makes you brittle and defensive

Brittle and defensive? No. Sad? Yes. Sad for you, that is, that you have to make false comparisons. Go and eat your beans and I'll eat my meat. Anyway, how do you know plants don't feel pain?

[ad_orientem]

We;ll soon be at the 'glorious twelfth' =- the time where twits in tweed blast the heck out of every grouse that hs the audacity to fly in front of their guns.
Those grouse don't have names.
Are they any less important than 'Cecil'?

But they're eaten. Hunting for food is fine, as long as you don't kill more than you can eat.

[L.A.]

We;ll soon be at the 'glorious twelfth' =- the time where twits in tweed blast the heck out of every grouse that hs the audacity to fly in front of their guns.
Those grouse don't have names.
Are they any less important than 'Cecil'?

I have always maintained that it would be so much simpler if they just had a 'Clay Pigeon' shoot and handed out oven-ready birds as prizes for a hit 

[ad_orientem]

We;ll soon be at the 'glorious twelfth' =- the time where twits in tweed blast the heck out of every grouse that hs the audacity to fly in front of their guns.
Those grouse don't have names.
Are they any less important than 'Cecil'?

I have always maintained that it would be so much simpler if they just had a 'Clay Pigeon' shoot and handed out oven-ready birds as prizes for a hit 

What's the difference? Isn't it better that a bird gets to live in the wild to be shot than raised in a cage to have its neck wrung?

[Shaker]

Brittle and defensive? No.

Yes. Very obviously so, in fact.

Anyway, how do you know plants don't feel pain?

Plants have none of the, let's call it for want of a better word "equipment" by which we know pain is registered/perceived and interpreted.

[Shaker]

What's the difference? Isn't it better that a bird gets to live in the wild to be shot than raised in a cage to have its neck wrung?

Since neither are necessary, no.

[Udayana]

...
Those grouse don't have names.
Are they any less important than 'Cecil'?

It seems the grouse are less important. But you never know:

One, carrying a bug and destined to be consumed by Trump, causing him to be ill or die, allowing someone reasonably sane to become US president, in turn preventing a nuclear war and thus saving much of the life on this planet - might be more important than seems on the surface.

We have no arithmetic with which to value any life or death.

[Shaker]

No, I was 'being led astray' by what I was taught in O level biology

Some time ago, I take it?

and a brief check on the internet seems to confirm that this is still mainstream opinion.

Your brief check seems to have been rather too brief - every medical, nutritional and dietetic professional body in the Western world has it on record that varied and well-planned vegetarian and vegan diets are not only healthy in the minimal, neutral sense but actively conducive to protection against the diseases of affluence.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

Plant life don't feel pain!! I think you should examine that statement against your own world view, harvest time!! The horror, mass killing of billions of plant life

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

No, I was 'being led astray' by what I was taught in O level biology

Some time ago, I take it?

and a brief check on the internet seems to confirm that this is still mainstream opinion.

Your brief check seems to have been rather too brief - every medical, nutritional and dietetic professional body in the Western world has it on record that varied and well-planned vegetarian and vegan diets are not only healthy in the minimal, neutral sense but actively conducive to protection against the diseases of affluence.

Yes, I concede that it was a little while ago - but I think the key phrase in your reply is:

 "varied and well-planned vegetarian and vegan diets"

My original comment was that certain nutrients are: not easy to obtain on a vegetarian diet - So are all vegetarians and vegans competent nutritionists? - I suspect not.

[Shaker]

Are all omnivores competent nutritionists? See your local KFC for details. What we know thus far statistically is that vegetarians and vegans tend to be more health-conscious, more interested in what they eat, less likely to smoke and to drink too much.

[ad_orientem]

Yes. Very obviously so, in fact.

Then keep deluding yourself, pal.

[Shaker]

Works for you 

[L.A.]

Are all omnivores competent nutritionists?  . . .

Obviously not, but in terms of getting essential nutrients there is much more leeway in an omnivorous diet.

[jeremyp]

To get protein..one need not eat protein. Elephants  do not eat meat but have the largest and strongest bodies on earth. They extract and produce proteins from the bamboo and grass that they eat.  Many animals can digest cellulose that we cannot...though we are related to them.

Humans do not have a digestive system that is capable of extracting anything from bamboo or grass.  It doesn't take generations to adapt to a grass diet, it takes millennia and the way it works is that the people who are marginally better than the rest at extracting anything out at all of grass get to not starve to death before they reproduce and pass on the genes that let them do this.

Many animals on this planet, including humans, have found a way of converting grass to protein that involves leeching off other animals i.e. by eating them.  That's not right or wrong, it's just the way it is.  If you don't like it, complain to your god.

[ad_orientem]

Are all omnivores competent nutritionists?

Not all, no. Many are though. I take an interest in nutrition through sports, so whilst not an expert by far I at least have some knowledge.

[Shaker]

Humans do not have a digestive system that is capable of extracting anything from bamboo or grass.

True ... which is why we eat other plant-based things instead.

Many animals on this planet, including humans, have found a way of converting grass to protein that involves leeching off other animals i.e. by eating them. That's not right or wrong, it's just the way it is.  If you don't like it, complain to your god.

If you've managed to evolve a theory of mind (a form of which is a sense of empathy - of distress-which-isn't-my-distress-but-I-can-imagine-what-it-would-be-like-if-it-were) and a moral sense, however, it patently is wrong given that the cruelty involved is unnecessary, therefore if indulged in it's done so gratuitously.

The one thing I do agree with is that for the theist, they have no option but to hold responsible the god they believe in for creating and maintaining this system.

[Rhiannon]

Are all omnivores competent nutritionists?  . . .

Obviously not, but in terms of getting essential nutrients there is much more leeway in an omnivorous diet.

This simply isn't true as eggs are a complete protein. The problem isn't that vegetarian diets need extra care, but the complacency that has historically surrounded a traditional meat-based diet. Most people are more observant now as the breadth of advice for healthy omnivore eating has caught up that for vegetarians.

[L.A.]

Are all omnivores competent nutritionists?  . . .

Obviously not, but in terms of getting essential nutrients there is much more leeway in an omnivorous diet.

This simply isn't true as eggs are a complete protein. The problem isn't that vegetarian diets need extra care, but the complacency that has historically surrounded a traditional meat-based diet. Most people are more observant now as the breadth of advice for healthy omnivore eating has caught up that for vegetarians.

I think it is true that eggs contain essential amino acids (not an option for vegans) but there are other problems such as B12 and some other vitamins and minerals.

[Rhiannon]

Again not true. Eggs contain all the B vitamins including B12, as do dairy products. Iron is the only mineral that vegetarians need to watch but it is easy to get enough - I've only been deficient in pregnancy, as are many women. The only other nutrient we can struggle with is Omega 3 and there are studies to show too much of that isn't good for us anyway.

If you think you will get the rest of your vitamins and minerals from meat then your diet is deficient. You will also have poor bowel health.

[jeremyp]

If you've managed to evolve a theory of mind (a form of which is a sense of empathy - of distress-which-isn't-my-distress-but-I-can-imagine-what-it-would-be-like-if-it-were) and a moral sense, however, it patently is wrong given that the cruelty involved is unnecessary, therefore if indulged in it's done so gratuitously.

This is a moral value that you have imposed on the World.  I can think of several ways of looking at this which at least cast doubt on your assertion and should give you cause to at least be less forthright about it.

For example, a lot of animals can exhibit the signs of distress.  I used fly spray on a fly the other day.  It got pretty distressed before it kicked the bucket.  On the other hand, I saw some beef cattle in a field and they didn't look distressed at all.   What about a 20 week human foetus at the moment it gets aborted?  Do you think it might be distressed.  Where are you going to draw the line as to what distress counts?

Then we can look at what is necessary.  It's only necessary to cultivate crops if you think it is necessary that humans shouldn't all die.  From the point of view of the biosphere it might be necessary that humans do go extinct.

So, no I don't think eating meat is patently wrong.  I mean, it might be wrong, but if it is, the reasons are not quite as obvious as you are painting them.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Excellent post, this whole subject is not black and white, pity we are straying from just how we should string up that dentist arsehole.

Gonnagle.