Author Topic: Why Was A New Covenent Required?  (Read 36043 times)

Hope

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2015, 09:49:19 PM »
Hope.

The new covenant was never hijacked by Constantine. That's just rubbish.
Sorry, ad_o, but history tells us that Constantine and his family - and hence the Romans - adopted Christianity as a way of overcoming the problems that had begun to develop as an increasing number of higher-level citizens of Rome and the Empire took it on board.  As you will agrre, in th early days (the first couple of hundred years), the church was predominantly made up of the poor, the enslaved and the dienfranchised with a smattering of more educated people.  Remember too, that a couple of Constantine's familial successors sought to roll back the acceptance of Christianity, to the extent that itwasn't fully accepted by Rome for several decades after Constantine's death.
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torridon

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2015, 10:20:24 PM »
1) God made people so why did they go wrong?

2) Didn't It see that coming? If It did then why didn't God put it right right at the start like any other sensible intelligent being?

People were made with a free will, to do as they wish.  Some choose to do wrong.  That is all there is to it.  What would the point have been to make a species of perfect beings?  They would just be aimless robots.

That's just your belief, of course.  There's no scientific evidence to support the belief in free will.

ad_orientem

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2015, 10:20:46 PM »
Hope.

The new covenant was never hijacked by Constantine. That's just rubbish.
Sorry, ad_o, but history tells us that Constantine and his family - and hence the Romans - adopted Christianity as a way of overcoming the problems that had begun to develop as an increasing number of higher-level citizens of Rome and the Empire took it on board.  As you will agrre, in th early days (the first couple of hundred years), the church was predominantly made up of the poor, the enslaved and the dienfranchised with a smattering of more educated people.  Remember too, that a couple of Constantine's familial successors sought to roll back the acceptance of Christianity, to the extent that itwasn't fully accepted by Rome for several decades after Constantine's death.

You've been reading too much Edward Gibbon. Constantine converted because he had a vision from Christ and both him and his mother, who found the True Cross, have received their reward. It was part of God's plan that the Empire that at first persecuted the Christians should itself eventually become Christian. For that we can thank Ss. Constantine, Helena and Theodosius.
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Shaker

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2015, 10:24:53 PM »
It didn't get it right, it didn't get it wrong, it's highly unlikely it is; is it?

ippy
Don't know, ippy; the post doesn't seem to be in English.  OK, it is made up of English words, but English words (even those used in Essex) have to be combined in such a way as to make sense.
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torridon

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2015, 10:25:13 PM »

That's how we resolve disputes, that's how we move forward, by arguing it out. No area of human discourse is immune to this, even scientists debate, often fiercely. Maybe my belief, such as it is, if I have one, is in the value of reason.

I think you are confusing debate with refutation, which is almost all that goes on here.

Maybe. But there is some debate as well; you'd do well to pay attention to that and resist the temptation to indulge in all the tit for tat stuff  ;)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 07:56:49 AM by torridon »

jeremyp

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2015, 10:50:49 PM »

You've been reading too much Edward Gibbon. Constantine converted because he had a vision from Christ and both him and his mother, who found the True Cross, have received their reward.

Right.  Here's a bridge I own.  Do you want to buy it?

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ad_orientem

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2015, 10:53:27 PM »
 ::)
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Shaker

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2015, 10:54:44 PM »
Pretty sure that was Jeremy's reaction as well.
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ippy

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2015, 12:33:22 AM »
It didn't get it right, it didn't get it wrong, it's highly unlikely it is; is it?

ippy
Don't know, ippy; the post doesn't seem to be in English.  OK, it is made up of English words, but English words (even those used in Essex) have to be combined in such a way as to make sense.

I note you seem to like your limited little world Hope.

ippy

Hope

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2015, 10:03:27 AM »
I note you seem to like your limited little world Hope.

ippy
'Limited'?  What's limited about one of the world's most widespread languages?  Just because Estuary English hasn't really got much beyond the boundaries of the Thames estuary.
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ippy

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2015, 10:19:12 AM »
I note you seem to like your limited little world Hope.

ippy
'Limited'?  What's limited about one of the world's most widespread languages?  Just because Estuary English hasn't really got much beyond the boundaries of the Thames estuary.

No need to get shirty Hope just because the weather here is much more sunny and warm than wet and windy Wales.

ippy

Leonard James

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2015, 11:07:40 AM »
I note you seem to like your limited little world Hope.

ippy
'Limited'?  What's limited about one of the world's most widespread languages?  Just because Estuary English hasn't really got much beyond the boundaries of the Thames estuary.

Ah, but that's well-spoken ENGLISH, Hope! All the others are distortions of English.  :P

Hope

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2015, 04:21:59 PM »
No need to get shirty Hope just because the weather here is much more sunny and warm than wet and windy Wales.
Warm and sunny?  South-East England?  I think you must have the wrong idea about S. E. England, ippy.  As I understand it, it has  average temperatures perhaps a degree or two above those of South East Wales (where I currently live) and perhaps three quarters of the rainfall of S.E Wales.  If you want warm and sunny, you need to go to South East Europe/Northern Africa/the Middle East, and places on that type of latitude.  Much further south, it's no longer warm, but hot.
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Hope

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2015, 04:25:54 PM »
Ah, but that's well-spoken ENGLISH, Hope! All the others are distortions of English.  :P
Sorry, Len, did you call it wewl-spowken English?  As a Cockney by birth, I wouldn't knock proper London English - just the affected Estuary version.
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Leonard James

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2015, 04:41:16 PM »
Ah, but that's well-spoken ENGLISH, Hope! All the others are distortions of English.  :P
Sorry, Len, did you call it wewl-spowken English?  As a Cockney by birth, I wouldn't knock proper London English - just the affected Estuary version.

Oh, sorry again mate. I've never heard of Estuary English, and assumed it meant Standard Southern English, as it was referred to in my day.

Hope

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2015, 05:05:54 PM »
Oh, sorry again mate. I've never heard of Estuary English, and assumed it meant Standard Southern English, as it was referred to in my day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English
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Leonard James

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2015, 05:19:30 PM »
Oh, sorry again mate. I've never heard of Estuary English, and assumed it meant Standard Southern English, as it was referred to in my day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English

Wow! What a mess! For me, the best English is that spoken by the BBC announcers in my younger days. I believe it was referred to as Standard Southern English, not to be confused with the rather affected Oxford English.

ippy

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2015, 05:36:39 PM »
Ah, but that's well-spoken ENGLISH, Hope! All the others are distortions of English.  :P
Sorry, Len, did you call it wewl-spowken English?  As a Cockney by birth, I wouldn't knock proper London English - just the affected Estuary version.

Oh, sorry again mate. I've never heard of Estuary English, and assumed it meant Standard Southern English, as it was referred to in my day.


Hi there Len, I've a London accent myself, incidentally have you ever noticed that London is the only place in the UK that doesn't really have a local accent, but my two boys brought up here in northern Essex do surprise me from time to time there's a tendency to not pronounce "T's", and there are a lot of Natterleys here, it makes me smile every time I hear this name pronounced by our locals, tattoos are referred to as tats, etc etc.

Oh by the way Len, American or not I think there must have been some very heavy indoctrination applied there to an in the first place a particularly credulous subject, when or where?

ippy 


Leonard James

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2015, 07:36:19 PM »
Oh by the way Len, American or not I think there must have been some very heavy indoctrination applied there to an in the first place a particularly credulous subject, when or where?

ippy

I'm sorry mate, but I can't make sense of that question. Can you rephrase it for an old guy, and I'll answer it?  :(

ad_orientem

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2015, 07:50:14 PM »
I've a London accent myself, incidentally have you ever noticed that London is the only place in the UK that doesn't really have a local accent

Eh? I was born in the East End of London and lived in London for 25 years and I'm pretty sure that there is a London accent, unless I've been mistaken all these years.
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Anchorman

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2015, 10:58:13 PM »
Hope.

The new covenant was never hijacked by Constantine. That's just rubbish.
Sorry, ad_o, but history tells us that Constantine and his family - and hence the Romans - adopted Christianity as a way of overcoming the problems that had begun to develop as an increasing number of higher-level citizens of Rome and the Empire took it on board.  As you will agrre, in th early days (the first couple of hundred years), the church was predominantly made up of the poor, the enslaved and the dienfranchised with a smattering of more educated people.  Remember too, that a couple of Constantine's familial successors sought to roll back the acceptance of Christianity, to the extent that itwasn't fully accepted by Rome for several decades after Constantine's death.

You've been reading too much Edward Gibbon. Constantine converted because he had a vision from Christ and both him and his mother, who found the True Cross, have received their reward. It was part of God's plan that the Empire that at first persecuted the Christians should itself eventually become Christian. For that we can thank Ss. Constantine, Helena and Theodosius.



-
I agree with Hope - and I haven't read Gibbon.
Constantine was a political animal - he wanted armies, and Christians were ripe for the legions.
After his supposed vision at Milvian Bridge, he kept his options open - actualy sponsoring building work to the "unconconquered sun" and Mithras, whilst cosying up to the Christians.
Not exactly faith in one God, was it?
The Empire would have become Christian in a few decades, with or without Constantine's help - numbers of believers were growing exponentially.
What Constantine DID do was impose an Imperial style beaurocracy, with it's endless red tape, rank, privilage and opportunity for corruption, on the church.
Constantine was a genious - a military strategist par excellence, a political animal to boot.
Religion wise, he kept his cards close to his chest - only 'converting' when he was about to snuff it.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 11:02:07 PM by Anchorman »
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Sassy

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2015, 11:01:38 AM »
Why?

How did God fail to get it right the first time? I mean It is suppose to be the all knowing, super-duper all powerful God.

And going on from this incompetence what makes you think It got it right the last time, 2000 years ago, as they claim?

I suppose the reality is that;

God went from adult to baby with mankind...
But in the spiritual life he has gone from baby to adult so that man had to learn and know who God is, to be able to bring him back to the truth and save his life.
God got NOTHING wrong. He has done everything according to his will to save all mankind. It started with a few and then added the rest. 
The bible does reveal this if you actually read it...
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ad_orientem

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2015, 11:04:54 AM »
Hope.

The new covenant was never hijacked by Constantine. That's just rubbish.
Sorry, ad_o, but history tells us that Constantine and his family - and hence the Romans - adopted Christianity as a way of overcoming the problems that had begun to develop as an increasing number of higher-level citizens of Rome and the Empire took it on board.  As you will agrre, in th early days (the first couple of hundred years), the church was predominantly made up of the poor, the enslaved and the dienfranchised with a smattering of more educated people.  Remember too, that a couple of Constantine's familial successors sought to roll back the acceptance of Christianity, to the extent that itwasn't fully accepted by Rome for several decades after Constantine's death.

You've been reading too much Edward Gibbon. Constantine converted because he had a vision from Christ and both him and his mother, who found the True Cross, have received their reward. It was part of God's plan that the Empire that at first persecuted the Christians should itself eventually become Christian. For that we can thank Ss. Constantine, Helena and Theodosius.



-
I agree with Hope - and I haven't read Gibbon.
Constantine was a political animal - he wanted armies, and Christians were ripe for the legions.
After his supposed vision at Milvian Bridge, he kept his options open - actualy sponsoring building work to the "unconconquered sun" and Mithras, whilst cosying up to the Christians.
Not exactly faith in one God, was it?
The Empire would have become Christian in a few decades, with or without Constantine's help - numbers of believers were growing exponentially.
What Constantine DID do was impose an Imperial style beaurocracy, with it's endless red tape, rank, privilage and opportunity for corruption, on the church.
Constantine was a genious - a military strategist par excellence, a political animal to boot.
Religion wise, he kept his cards close to his chest - only 'converting' when he was about to snuff it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, innit. But for my part I do believe the visions him a d his mother received were genuine and that they have both received their reward in heaven.
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Jack Knave

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2015, 12:40:46 PM »
Why?

How did God fail to get it right the first time? I mean It is suppose to be the all knowing, super-duper all powerful God.

And going on from this incompetence what makes you think It got it right the last time, 2000 years ago, as they claim?

God doesn't get it wrong:  people do.  Jesus came to put it right.
1) God made people so why did they go wrong?

2) Didn't It see that coming? If It did then why didn't God put it right right at the start like any other sensible intelligent being?

People were made with a free will, to do as they wish.  Some choose to do wrong.  That is all there is to it.  What would the point have been to make a species of perfect beings?  They would just be aimless robots.
Yes, as the dogma goes, people were made with freewill. Made by God, so again the manufacturer is to blame!!!

Providing them with freewill doesn't make God's project meaningful, does it? Why did God bother in the first place, It had no reason to do so?

If God didn't bother what would It have lost, and in creating the universe what has God gained?

Outrider

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Re: Why Was A New Covenent Required?
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2015, 12:47:43 PM »
Since Jesus always referred to "our Father,"  I for one will stick to that.  Not that it is of any great matter.

Since the (overwhelmingly male) editors of the works that became the New Testament rendered a term that the patriarchic society that poetically translated the works chose to render as 'our Father' you can choose to think that Jesus said 'our Father', but not really anything more.

As ever, it's not a demonstrable fact or even reasonably solid deduction, it's an assertion.
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