Beliefs

[Owlswing]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

God calls me to witness to the truth.  I obey His call to the best of my ability.

Sorry Alan but the deity is up the creek without a paddle where you are concerned, as your posts aren't convincing in the least. As for the 'truth' you might believe your POV is such, but cannot produce the tiniest bit of evidence to support your claim!

FFS Floo, enough with the "evidence" crap! Everybody except you seems to  know full well that there can be no eveidence for the deities existence just as there is no evidence that there are no deities.

Just like Thrud on  several other threads, you are sounding like a cracked 78!

[Owlswing]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

If we cannot justify our beliefs to others, that might be an indicator that the belief is unjustified.

Only "might" though!

[Owlswing]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

God calls me to witness to the truth.  I obey His call to the best of my ability.

NO - to witness to what, FOR YOU, is the truth!

It is NOT the truth for me.

There is only one truth

To you and your blinkered cohorts - not to everybody!

[Rhiannon]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

If we cannot justify our beliefs to others, that might be an indicator that the belief is unjustified.

Well, leaving aside the fact I kind of have experiences and ideas rather than beliefs, I can justify mine quite easily without having 'proof'. They do no harm, and I like having them.

Which makes me wonder whether that is at the root of the Christian need to provide proof - the feeling that in some way they are harmful because they seek to impose onto others both a moral code and the notion of damnation? If you are going to tell people that being gay and married is a sin and that your mum isn't in heaven because she didn't believe then you will feel the need to prove that in the face of the upset and distress you have caused.

[Owlswing]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

If we cannot justify our beliefs to others, that might be an indicator that the belief is unjustified.

Well, leaving aside the fact I kind of have experiences and ideas rather than beliefs, I can justify mine quite easily without having 'proof'. They do no harm, and I like having them.

Which makes me wonder whether that is at the root of the Christian need to provide proof - the feeling that in some way they are harmful because they seek to impose onto others both a moral code and the notion of damnation? If you are going to tell people that being gay and married is a sin and that your mum isn't in heaven because she didn't believe then you will feel the need to prove that in the face of the upset and distress you have caused.

An unpleasant truth that you will have a hard, if not impossible, task in convincing the Christians is truth.

[floo]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

God calls me to witness to the truth.  I obey His call to the best of my ability.

NO - to witness to what, FOR YOU, is the truth!

It is NOT the truth for me.

There is only one truth

Your 'truth'?

[Owlswing]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

God calls me to witness to the truth.  I obey His call to the best of my ability.

NO - to witness to what, FOR YOU, is the truth!

It is NOT the truth for me.

There is only one truth

Your 'truth'?

Precisely!

[Alan Burns]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

God calls me to witness to the truth.  I obey His call to the best of my ability.

NO - to witness to what, FOR YOU, is the truth!

It is NOT the truth for me.

There is only one truth

Your 'truth'?

God's truth

[floo]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

God calls me to witness to the truth.  I obey His call to the best of my ability.

NO - to witness to what, FOR YOU, is the truth!

It is NOT the truth for me.

There is only one truth

Your 'truth'?

God's truth

As has been stated over and over and over again, you state as a FACT things which are only an opinion with no data to substantiate them!

[Owlswing]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

God calls me to witness to the truth.  I obey His call to the best of my ability.

NO - to witness to what, FOR YOU, is the truth!

It is NOT the truth for me.

There is only one truth

Your 'truth'?

God's truth

YOUR god - not mine!

I know that it is hard, if not totally impossible, for a died-in-the-wool totally blinkered Bible-basher like you to understand, but your belief, your faith, your religion is totally rejected by the vast majority of the world's population and no amount of your repetitive attempts to convince anyone else is going to change that!

When it comes to discussions that compare your belief with anyone else's or questions the values of your religion you might just as well not post because I doubt if there is one person on this forum who cannot accurately, to about 157 decimal places, predict your answers and/or comments.

[torridon]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

If we cannot justify our beliefs to others, that might be an indicator that the belief is unjustified.

Well, leaving aside the fact I kind of have experiences and ideas rather than beliefs, I can justify mine quite easily without having 'proof'. They do no harm, and I like having them.

Out of experience and belief, it is experience which is the more primitive, more fundamental, and visceral. Belief I would say more is about the broader conceptual framework that we construct within which we can make sense, of and understand our experience.  Experience is always undeniable and valid and personal to the individual, but beliefs are way more fallible drawing on a much wider range of second hand experience and they are vulnerable to our inherent biases.

[Dicky Underpants]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

If we cannot justify our beliefs to others, that might be an indicator that the belief is unjustified.

Well, leaving aside the fact I kind of have experiences and ideas rather than beliefs, I can justify mine quite easily without having 'proof'. They do no harm, and I like having them.

Out of experience and belief, it is experience which is the more primitive, more fundamental, and visceral. Belief I would say more is about the broader conceptual framework that we construct within which we can make sense, of and understand our experience.  Experience is always undeniable and valid and personal to the individual, but beliefs are way more fallible drawing on a much wider range of second hand experience and they are vulnerable to our inherent biases.

However, we can have profound experiences which seem conclusive at the time, but which require re-assessment in the light of further experience. I don't deny that some experiences can be life changing, but there is always the possibility that you have either interpreted the experience wrongly, or maybe an earlier experience was the truer one. For instance, some born-again Christians have the full whammy, believing they've been singled out by God. Fortunately, some later employ their strong critical faculties to realise this was largely a mind-generated illusion. I can think of two notable instances - Bishop Richard Holloway, who later became more of a religious agnostic, and Bart D. Ehrman, who seems to be more of an atheist.

They've both been misled by Satan, you see

[Owlswing]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

If we cannot justify our beliefs to others, that might be an indicator that the belief is unjustified.

Well, leaving aside the fact I kind of have experiences and ideas rather than beliefs, I can justify mine quite easily without having 'proof'. They do no harm, and I like having them.

Out of experience and belief, it is experience which is the more primitive, more fundamental, and visceral. Belief I would say more is about the broader conceptual framework that we construct within which we can make sense, of and understand our experience.  Experience is always undeniable and valid and personal to the individual, but beliefs are way more fallible drawing on a much wider range of second hand experience and they are vulnerable to our inherent biases.

However, we can have profound experiences which seem conclusive at the time, but which require re-assessment in the light of further experience. I don't deny that some experiences can be life changing, but there is always the possibility that you have either interpreted the experience wrongly, or maybe an earlier experience was the truer one. For instance, some born-again Christians have the full whammy, believing they've been singled out by God. Fortunately, some later employ their strong critical faculties to realise this was largely a mind-generated illusion. I can think of two notable instances - Bishop Richard Holloway, who later became more of a religious agnostic, and Bart D. Ehrman, who seems to be more of an atheist.

They've both been misled by Satan, you see

As opposed to Christains who have been, and are being misinformed by a two-thousand year old book of Chinese whispers.

[cyberman]

Christians who have been, and are being misinformed by a two-thousand year old book of Chinese whispers.

As has been stated over and over and over again, you state as a FACT things which are only an opinion

[jakswan]

I thinks its a survival of the fittest thing. There have been thousands of religions and its no surprise me that the ones that survive are the ones with the biggest teeth!

If you don't join there is a threat of a bad thing, even if you are a nice person that still won't stop the bad thing. So convinced are the followers of the bad thing they are screaming 'BAD THING RUN!'.

[Owlswing]

I thinks its a survival of the fittest thing. There have been thousands of religions and its no surprise me that the ones that survive are the ones with the biggest teeth!

If you don't join there is a threat of a bad thing, even if you are a nice person that still won't stop the bad thing. So convinced are the followers of the bad thing they are screaming 'BAD THING RUN!'.

But the running does not necessarily result in the demise of the "refusers to join".

[BashfulAnthony]

Does it matter to you if you can't prove what you believe to others?

If we cannot justify our beliefs to others, that might be an indicator that the belief is unjustified.

Well, leaving aside the fact I kind of have experiences and ideas rather than beliefs, I can justify mine quite easily without having 'proof'. They do no harm, and I like having them.

Out of experience and belief, it is experience which is the more primitive, more fundamental, and visceral. Belief I would say more is about the broader conceptual framework that we construct within which we can make sense, of and understand our experience.  Experience is always undeniable and valid and personal to the individual, but beliefs are way more fallible drawing on a much wider range of second hand experience and they are vulnerable to our inherent biases.

However, we can have profound experiences which seem conclusive at the time, but which require re-assessment in the light of further experience. I don't deny that some experiences can be life changing, but there is always the possibility that you have either interpreted the experience wrongly, or maybe an earlier experience was the truer one. For instance, some born-again Christians have the full whammy, believing they've been singled out by God. Fortunately, some later employ their strong critical faculties to realise this was largely a mind-generated illusion. I can think of two notable instances - Bishop Richard Holloway, who later became more of a religious agnostic, and Bart D. Ehrman, who seems to be more of an atheist.

They've both been misled by Satan, you see

As opposed to Christains who have been, and are being misinformed by a two-thousand year old book of Chinese whispers.

That's what I like about this forum, the high intellectual content!

[OH MY WORLD!]

Rhi,
I noticed in one one your attacks on the Christian and their faith posts, that you used the word, impose. Do you mean like Isis Muslims holding a gun to your head or selling you as a sex slave? Or do you mean like a conservative Christian exercising their right to get involved in politics? Do you mean impose as in a Christian daring to NOT hide from others what is written in the Bible cause it might make somebody sad or uncomfortable? Why must we water down what we believe to make you comfortable? Why must we rip sections of our scripture out and change the gospel message? Why don't you demand change from the Hindus that target and attack and kill Muslims and Christians all in the name of their false gods. Why are you not making any demands on the Muslim faith? It stands against homosexuality and it too says if you don't believe, hell awaits. Try living a life as a homosexual or an atheist or a pagan or Christian in Gaza, Sudan, Arabia, Iran and so on. You would soon want those terrible Christian imposers back. (snork) Can you please list for me everywhere you are being oppressed by the Christian's imposing?

[BashfulAnthony]

Rhi,
I noticed in one one your attacks on the Christian and their faith posts, that you used the word, impose. Do you mean like Isis Muslims holding a gun to your head or selling you as a sex slave? Or do you mean like a conservative Christian exercising their right to get involved in politics? Do you mean impose as in a Christian daring to NOT hide from others what is written in the Bible cause it might make somebody sad or uncomfortable? Why must we water down what we believe to make you comfortable? Why must we rip sections of our scripture out and change the gospel message? Why don't you demand change from the Hindus that target and attack and kill Muslims and Christians all in the name of their false gods. Why are you not making any demands on the Muslim faith? It stands against homosexuality and it too says if you don't believe, hell awaits. Try living a life as a homosexual or an atheist or a pagan or Christian in Gaza, Sudan, Arabia, Iran and so on. You would soon want those terrible Christian imposers back. (snork) Can you please list for me everywhere you are being oppressed by the Christian's imposing?

I'm interested to hear the response to that last question!

[Nearly Sane]

Rhi,
I noticed in one one your attacks on the Christian and their faith posts, that you used the word, impose. Do you mean like Isis Muslims holding a gun to your head or selling you as a sex slave? Or do you mean like a conservative Christian exercising their right to get involved in politics? Do you mean impose as in a Christian daring to NOT hide from others what is written in the Bible cause it might make somebody sad or uncomfortable? Why must we water down what we believe to make you comfortable? Why must we rip sections of our scripture out and change the gospel message? Why don't you demand change from the Hindus that target and attack and kill Muslims and Christians all in the name of their false gods. Why are you not making any demands on the Muslim faith? It stands against homosexuality and it too says if you don't believe, hell awaits. Try living a life as a homosexual or an atheist or a pagan or Christian in Gaza, Sudan, Arabia, Iran and so on. You would soon want those terrible Christian imposers back. (snork) Can you please list for me everywhere you are being oppressed by the Christian's imposing?

Last week, I was complaining to someone about the behaviour of a group of young boys on a train. At no point in making that complaint was I absolving people behaving badly anywhere
. Do you have any evidence that Rhiannon is not speaking out against actions of the idiots in IS, or are you just wanting to make an unsupported accusation about her hypocrisy because you are entirely biscuitless?

[Nearly Sane]

On the subject of 'Christians' stopping me doing things, the first thing was indulge in a lie in this morning as one of their charming little drum bands was playing at 8am, then when I went out to get breakfast I had to wait to cross the road because even though there was a gap in their little flute bands if I had attempted to, I would have been physically attacked, and that is not to mention that two of them thought it ok to piss on the doorway to my block - all of this under the watch of the police and bring paid for by my taxes. And hey' absolutely, this is a minor inconvenience but it was justified by the nonsense of religion. And I oppose that, and I oppose much more strongly the witless viciousness of IS. But guess what the support of the rights of the first lot to celebrate their weird internecine strifes, is the same justification as the mindless thugs in IS make and if there is a trail of justification in their actions it starts in the claim that my rights are forgotten because of the other people being 'religious'

[BashfulAnthony]

On the subject of 'Christians' stopping me doing things, the first thing was indulge in a lie in this morning as one of their charming little drum bands was playing at 8am, then when I went out to get breakfast I had to wait to cross the road because even though there was a gap in their little flute bands if I had attempted to, I would have been physically attacked, and that is not to mention that two of them thought it ok to piss on the doorway to my block - all of this under the watch of the police and bring paid for by my taxes. And hey' absolutely, this is a minor inconvenience but it was justified by the nonsense of religion. And I oppose that, and I oppose much more strongly the witless viciousness of IS. But guess what the support of the rights of the first lot to celebrate their weird internecine strifes, is the same justification as the mindless thugs in IS make and if there is a trail of justification in their actions it starts in the claim that my rights are forgotten because of the other people being 'religious'

An over-the-top post, by someone who specialise in the genre.

[Nearly Sane]

On the subject of 'Christians' stopping me doing things, the first thing was indulge in a lie in this morning as one of their charming little drum bands was playing at 8am, then when I went out to get breakfast I had to wait to cross the road because even though there was a gap in their little flute bands if I had attempted to, I would have been physically attacked, and that is not to mention that two of them thought it ok to piss on the doorway to my block - all of this under the watch of the police and bring paid for by my taxes. And hey' absolutely, this is a minor inconvenience but it was justified by the nonsense of religion. And I oppose that, and I oppose much more strongly the witless viciousness of IS. But guess what the support of the rights of the first lot to celebrate their weird internecine strifes, is the same justification as the mindless thugs in IS make and if there is a trail of justification in their actions it starts in the claim that my rights are forgotten because of the other people being 'religious'

An over-the-top post, by someone who specialise in the genre.

And an under the top reply by someone who simply indulges in personal attack rather than discussion argument. Or rather someone who tends to because of reasons best known to themself. 


If you think it is over the top explain why. This discussion stuff is really hard when you retreat into this shell of one liners, made up of bastard atheists, stupid idiots, oh that's a template stuff.

In today's post you have both got annoyed at posts not being intellectual enough and then if there is something you think is intellectual gone down the 'you googled that' route. Can I suggest that you actually try and engage rather than this tedious and simplistic pattern of bitter accusation? If there is any such thing as a soul, I can only imagine your approach would be deeply corrosive for such a thing.

[BashfulAnthony]

On the subject of 'Christians' stopping me doing things, the first thing was indulge in a lie in this morning as one of their charming little drum bands was playing at 8am, then when I went out to get breakfast I had to wait to cross the road because even though there was a gap in their little flute bands if I had attempted to, I would have been physically attacked, and that is not to mention that two of them thought it ok to piss on the doorway to my block - all of this under the watch of the police and bring paid for by my taxes. And hey' absolutely, this is a minor inconvenience but it was justified by the nonsense of religion. And I oppose that, and I oppose much more strongly the witless viciousness of IS. But guess what the support of the rights of the first lot to celebrate their weird internecine strifes, is the same justification as the mindless thugs in IS make and if there is a trail of justification in their actions it starts in the claim that my rights are forgotten because of the other people being 'religious'

An over-the-top post, by someone who specialise in the genre.

And an under the top reply by someone who simply indulges in personal attack rather than discussion argument. Or rather someone who tends to because of reasons best known to themself. 


If you think it is over the top explain why. This discussion stuff is really hard when you retreat into this shell of one liners, made up of bastard atheists, stupid idiots, oh that's a template stuff.

In today's post you have both got annoyed at posts not being intellectual enough and then if there is something you think is intellectual gone down the 'you googled that' route. Can I suggest that you actually try and engage rather than this tedious and simplistic pattern of bitter accusation? If there is any such thing as a soul, I can only imagine your approach would be deeply corrosive for such a thing.

When have I ever used that term?  You little liar.  Still, I suppose you are so used to that kind of language, you get to the stage when you think it's the norm for everyone.  Not for me, chum!

[Owlswing]

On the subject of 'Christians' stopping me doing things, the first thing was indulge in a lie in this morning as one of their charming little drum bands was playing at 8am, then when I went out to get breakfast I had to wait to cross the road because even though there was a gap in their little flute bands if I had attempted to, I would have been physically attacked, and that is not to mention that two of them thought it ok to piss on the doorway to my block - all of this under the watch of the police and bring paid for by my taxes. And hey' absolutely, this is a minor inconvenience but it was justified by the nonsense of religion. And I oppose that, and I oppose much more strongly the witless viciousness of IS. But guess what the support of the rights of the first lot to celebrate their weird internecine strifes, is the same justification as the mindless thugs in IS make and if there is a trail of justification in their actions it starts in the claim that my rights are forgotten because of the other people being 'religious'

An over-the-top post, by someone who specialise in the genre.

And an under the top reply by someone who simply indulges in personal attack rather than discussion argument. Or rather someone who tends to because of reasons best known to themself. 


If you think it is over the top explain why. This discussion stuff is really hard when you retreat into this shell of one liners, made up of bastard atheists, stupid idiots, oh that's a template stuff.

In today's post you have both got annoyed at posts not being intellectual enough and then if there is something you think is intellectual gone down the 'you googled that' route. Can I suggest that you actually try and engage rather than this tedious and simplistic pattern of bitter accusation? If there is any such thing as a soul, I can only imagine your approach would be deeply corrosive for such a thing.

NS

Do you really think that BA, Sassy, Hope, JC, etc, are going to change the habits of a lifetime just because others, of all religions, except Christianity of course, think that they are talking rubbish, and that everybody, except the Christians, recognise that they have every right to express this opinion, just as they, the Christians, have the right to express their opinions against the religion, or lack thereof, of all non-Christians.