Folk or Roots?

[Hope]

Was listening to Radio 2's coverage of the Cambridge Folk Festival earlier this afternoon and Mark Radcliffe's first guest - name I can't recall - spoke about 'Roots' music as opposed to 'Folk' music.  I've heard the term before but never really understood the difference.  Any suggestions from our music aficionados?

[Gordon]

Yep - avoid the former totally, if 'roots'='blues' then fine, and most importantly listen to more jazz 

[jeremyp]

Yep - avoid the former totally, if 'roots'='blues' then fine, and most importantly listen to more jazz 

I went to Cambridge several times in the 90's and having heard quite a lot of folk music as a result, I have to disagree with you.  Admittedly the definition of folk used at Cambridge is quite broad since it seems to include English Folk, Scottish, Welsh , especially Irish, blues, cajun, country (and western).  Apparently even Tom Robinson is a folk musician.

Jazz, on the other hand, is for pretentious people who like to sit in smokey night clubs with menthol cigarettes pretending that random notes played on a saxophone are music, all in black and white, of course like French art cinema.

[Shaker]

There are all different kinds of jazz - there's boring jazz, repetitive jazz, annoying jazz ...

[Rhiannon]

I love folk. There's the incomparable Sandy Denny of course, but there are numerous contemporary folk and folk-influenced artists producing good stuff. We like Show of Hands and Peatbog Faeries for example, and Clannad are still going, and Bella Hardy was kind enough to send my eldest some stuff for a music project.

Several pubs around here have folk nights and a neighbouring village has its own folk festival.

[Anchorman]

Yep - avoid the former totally, if 'roots'='blues' then fine, and most importantly listen to more jazz 

-
You blasphemous heretic!
(he said, speaking as an addict of both English and Scottish folk and traditional music since he saw the Spinners and Ewan McColl in 1972, and of American folk since Pete Seeger in 1973....)

[jeremyp]

There are all different kinds of jazz - there's boring jazz, repetitive jazz, annoying jazz ...

I'm going to steal that.

I used to listen to Ken Clarke's Jazz greats on Radio 4 because it was hysterical.  In each programme, Ken would examine the life of a jazz great along with a guest jazz musician e.g. this programme about Clifford Brown

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017wy71

The jazz great inevitably would have some early success followed by a period involving lots of drugs and alcohol with an  optional renaissance if they survived the period with drugs and alcohol.  The jazz great almost always died penniless in some sort of tragic and pointless accident.

The discussion would be interrupted by short excerpts of the jazz great extracting random notes from their instrument of choice.  Frequently Ken Clarke would claim that these paeans to entropy actually had names.

[Anchorman]

I love folk. There's the incomparable Sandy Denny of course, but there are numerous contemporary folk and folk-influenced artists producing good stuff. We like Show of Hands and Peatbog Faeries for example, and Clannad are still going, and Bella Hardy was kind enough to send my eldest some stuff for a music project.

Several pubs around here have folk nights and a neighbouring village has its own folk festival.

-
The incomparable Sandy Denny!
I used to frequent certain hostilries in my late teens (Sandy Bell's in Edinburgh, and the Scotia in Glasgow, to name a few) where folkies gathered to have sessions 'after hours' - and not a drop drunk (honest). I remember Sandy singing impromptu with Roy Williamson of the Corries and Ian MacCalman of the MacCalmans....they sang "Tam Lin" - the whole ballad, which has over twenty verses, without a flaw.
If only someone with enough sense had recorded it.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Hope,

On the subject of folk music, I have a theory, if you want to study the history of your country country then start with the music/poetry.

A classic example of this from a Scottish perspective is the song The Bloody Sark's ( good luck with the interpretation ) but if you want to study the life and times of one of our so called heroes, Rob Roy MacGregor, then that song is a great place to start, it certainly puts the Hollywood version in its place.

I love folk music, big Corrie's fan, sadly the Corrie's ruined me for other folk singers as the Corrie's took folk music to the sublime ( chust sublime, in the words of Para Handy )

Gonnagle.

[Anchorman]

I'm with you on the 'Bloody sarks', gonners.
Of course the Corries were brilliant (though they lost something after Paddy Bell left...Roy's "Come by the hills" was written for her)
I like the MacCalmans - and I'm a good friend of Gordon Menzies from the unique Gaberlunzie, and Alistair MacDonald - who is really sick of people demanding his couthy stuff, when he has written some brilliant material of his own.
But there are plenty of other modern trad music artiats out there - Kathrine Polwart, Malinky, Wolfstone, to name three of umpteen hundred.
Try dipping your toe in the water!
Mind you, apart from the Gabs, who are still doing the rounds, if it's Corrie-style stuff you're after, try "North Sea Gas".


Here's an example of NSG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BTSLjdiY90

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jim,

North Sea Gas, I saw them at some fancy hotel up in Aviemore, they are good but they don't have that edge that the Corrie's bring to a song.

When Roy or Ronnie sang, the only way I can describe it is listening to the pipes, as you know I am not a nationalist but when Roy and Ronnie sang I would want to grab the rusty Claymore and rush for the border, what I would have done once I reached the border is another question, probably have handed the bottle to my English brother and felt sorry for him for not being a Scot

The Corries were often accused of not sticking to the traditional, for me that never mattered, it was the passion and the heart they brought to the music that mattered.

Gonnagle.

[Anchorman]

The Corries bought traditional music to the masses by introducing stufff like Thackery's brilliant "Bantam Cock" or the "Bricklayer's song" as well as some well known classics into the mix, interspersed with many of Roy's own material.
They learned a lot from Hamish Henderson, Ewan McColl, Jeannie Robertson and Lizzie Higgins.
Roy often said his inspiration was Glesga's own Matt McGinn - and I wouldn't doubt that in the slightest.
The modern trad music is every bit as passionate, every bit as skillful, both in instrumentation and in songwriting.
Eddi Reader, Karen Polwort, Dougie Maclean - and never forgetting the wonderful Dick Gaughan - are every bit as committed and enthusiastic.
I defy you to listen to, for example, the Tannahill Weavers, without looking out your sgian dubh!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jim,

Ah well! Of course you are right, Eddie Reader singing, A fond Kiss, sublime, and the Corries version of the Bricklayers song, they brought the real humour out in that song.

I concede that I am debating with a true aficionado, don't tell the rest of the forum, confessing that you could be wrong is not the done thing on this forum.

Gonnagle.

[Anchorman]

Dear Jim,

Ah well! Of course you are right, Eddie Reader singing, A fond Kiss, sublime, and the Corries version of the Bricklayers song, they brought the real humour out in that song.

I concede that I am debating with a true aficionado, don't tell the rest of the forum, confessing that you could be wrong is not the done thing on this forum.

Gonnagle.

-
I forgive you my son!
I first met Roy in 1979 - and met him a wheen of times since, before his death.
A great guy in every way.
Ronnie made a couple of very good solo albums after Roy's passing - a rehash of some Corries material plus some of Ewan McColl's stuff - and that was really excellent stuff.
He's retired as a singer now, but still devotes time to painting - and, imho, he's a superb artist, both in portrait and landscapes.

[Enki]

Yep - avoid the former totally, if 'roots'='blues' then fine, and most importantly listen to more jazz 

-
You blasphemous heretic!

(he said, speaking as an addict of both English and Scottish folk and traditional music since he saw the Spinners and Ewan McColl in 1972, and of American folk since Pete Seeger in 1973....)

Do you remember the Watersons, Jim?

[Anchorman]

Yep - avoid the former totally, if 'roots'='blues' then fine, and most importantly listen to more jazz 

-
You blasphemous heretic!

(he said, speaking as an addict of both English and Scottish folk and traditional music since he saw the Spinners and Ewan McColl in 1972, and of American folk since Pete Seeger in 1973....)

Do you remember the Watersons, Jim?

-
I had a couple of their albums on disc, but I had to ditch my record collection (except the 700-odd cds) when I downsized.

[Enki]

Yep - avoid the former totally, if 'roots'='blues' then fine, and most importantly listen to more jazz 

-
You blasphemous heretic!

(he said, speaking as an addict of both English and Scottish folk and traditional music since he saw the Spinners and Ewan McColl in 1972, and of American folk since Pete Seeger in 1973....)

Do you remember the Watersons, Jim?

-
I had a couple of their albums on disc, but I had to ditch my record collection (except the 700-odd cds) when I downsized.

Hi Jim,

Well you might be interested to know that in the 60s and the 70s there was a vibrant folk music and jazz scene in Hull, and these often overlapped. I was interested in jazz and blues especially, fronting a New Orleans style jazz band(think Ken Colyer) at the time.(I played trumpet).

Our banjoist in those days was John Harrison, a very versatile instrumentalist. He became the fourth member of the Folksons(who later became the Watersons) and featured on their LP/CD "Frost and Fire" when they made it big in the folk music world. In those days we used to go to the Watersons' favourite hangout, The Bluebell Pub" in Hull city centre, and discuss and argue about all sorts of things musical. The Watersons, at one time, used to only sing and harmonise in a five note scale, because they said it was closer to the folk music roots that they wanted to emulate. We used to have endless discussions such as on the merits of Ewan MacColl's song "Shoals of Herring" as to whether it was a genuine folk song or not.(he actually wrote it)

I used to know all the Watersons pretty well, and kept in touch with John over many years. I can remember going on a Riverboat Shuffle on the old ferry(travelling up to Spurn from Hull and back), with Mike Waterson(somewhat the worse for wear) singing a made up blues while some  local jazz musicians, including me, provided the accompaniment.

Unforunately two of the Watersons are now dead, but Norma is still going strong. I believe she lives near Robin Hood's Bay, and her daughter from her second marriage to martin Carthy(Eliza Carthy) still keeps the folk music tradition alive and well.

This clip gives something of the flavour of those days:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM_1gLvySHw

[Sebastian Toe]

-
The incomparable Sandy Denny!
I used to frequent certain hostilries in my late teens (Sandy Bell's in Edinburgh, and the Scotia in Glasgow, to name a few) where folkies gathered to have sessions 'after hours' - and not a drop drunk (honest). I remember Sandy singing impromptu with Roy Williamson of the Corries and Ian MacCalman of the MacCalmans....they sang "Tam Lin" - the whole ballad, which has over twenty verses, without a flaw.
If only someone with enough sense had recorded it.

A wee TV piece on Sandy Bell's Broadsheet. (ahhhh John Toye, brings back memories!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZKsiL3PpJA


and a Friday night at SB's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUg4WgJ8dus

[BashfulAnthony]

If there was a Hell,  they would be playing jazz, 24 hours a day!   

[Gordon]

If there was a Hell,  they would be playing jazz, 24 hours a day!   

Sounds like heaven to me 

[Anchorman]

Thanks for that, enki.
As far as I'm concerned, "Shoals of Herring" (as well as "The first time ever I saw your face" are folk.
Don't even start that old debate....it'll end up with people stabbing each other with peace badges depending on whether they thought Dylan was a traitor or not when he started with the bass guitar.
As far as I'm concerned, if most folkies think it's folk, it's folk.
McColl is one man I really wish I'd met; but by the time I was a folk addict, Peggy Seeger had simply messed him up. Jimmie McGregor *yes, THAT Jimmie McGregor - that's how old I am) offered to introduce him to me the last time he was in Scotland...but it wasn't to be.
He was trulybrilliant, as writer, singer, interpreter of songs, and, along with Lomax and Henderson, as a collector of the songs that were being lost in the fifties.

[cyberman]

Jazz, on the other hand, is for pretentious people who like to sit in smokey night clubs with menthol cigarettes pretending that random notes played on a saxophone are music, all in black and white, of course like French art cinema.

It's especially irritating when they make the saxophone squeak in that annoying way, to show how unconstrained they are by stiff old conventions - like playing the instrument properly

[cyberman]

There are all different kinds of jazz - there's boring jazz, repetitive jazz, annoying jazz ...

It's like the emperor's new clothes - if you can't see how great it is, you're just not cool enough.