Sick wickedness of Catholic parents.

[Udayana]

It's just how people tend to feel subjectively. Many heterosexuals have an inbuilt "disgust" at the idea of having sex with someone of the same sex.

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?  I have yet to meet any such heterosexuals. 

In fact, the heterosexuals I know are actually far more interested in working for things like childrens' rights, healthcare, trade justice, education and overseas aid, and only really take part in a debate like this when they are told what they believe about homosexuality by those who believe that legislation regarding homosexuality has to be changed.

The only evidence I have are myself and most people I have discussed homosexuality with. How about yourself Hope? Can we take it that if it weren't for various religious edicts you would be perfectly fine with making out with another man?

[Outrider]

It's just how people tend to feel subjectively. Many heterosexuals have an inbuilt "disgust" at the idea of having sex with someone of the same sex. Probably homosexuals have an opposite tendency. It doesn't mean that there is something inherently disgusting about it or that cannot be overridden by culture. But as there is a significant difference in the relative numbers, this would be enough to bias tribal mores.

Then later this was probably picked up and codified by some religions.

In-built, or culturally ingrained? If it were ingrained we wouldn't expect to see civilisations and cultures around the world and through history that were quite accepting of it, and yet we do.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

It's just how people tend to feel subjectively. Many heterosexuals have an inbuilt "disgust" at the idea of having sex with someone of the same sex. Probably homosexuals have an opposite tendency. It doesn't mean that there is something inherently disgusting about it or that cannot be overridden by culture. But as there is a significant difference in the relative numbers, this would be enough to bias tribal mores.

Then later this was probably picked up and codified by some religions.

In-built, or culturally ingrained? If it were ingrained we wouldn't expect to see civilisations and cultures around the world and through history that were quite accepting of it, and yet we do.

O.

Even old cymrudinnion was up for some if it was two women to be watched.

[Udayana]

No doubt that it could be "culturally ingrained", but I suspect that there is an in-built element. We evolved from and are still animals, and nearly all human morality can find its origins in instinctual disgust reactions of one kind or another.

In our washed, shaved, antiperspirant'd, deodorized then cologne'd world we've lost touch with our animal senses.

Even if it were fully in-built it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be accepted or tolerated, but might be treated, culturally, as an exception - eg as a third sex or parallel community. Even in ancient Greece it was fine for men as pederasty, but not really for adult partnership with our "equal marriage" concept.

Ancient peoples must have had pretty much the same discussions that we do, just with less known facts to hand.

[Outrider]

No doubt that it could be "culturally ingrained", but I suspect that there is an in-built element. We evolved from and are still animals, and nearly all human morality can find its origins in instinctual disgust reactions of one kind or another.

In our washed, shaved, antiperspirant'd, deodorized then cologne'd world we've lost touch with our animal senses.

Firstly, that it's 'natural' doesn't make it right - I know you didn't make that claim, but it's worth remembering. Secondly, whether all 'morality' can be traced back to instinctive reactions is questionable - if that were the case we'd expect to see broadly the same moral precepts across all cultures, and we don't.

Even if it were fully in-built it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be accepted or tolerated, but might be treated, culturally, as an exception - eg as a third sex or parallel community. Even in ancient Greece it was fine for men as pederasty, but not really for adult partnership with our "equal marriage" concept.

Which makes my point - if homosexual activity were instinctively 'yuk', and embedded in morality because of that, it wouldn't be acceptable under certain circumstances in such a broad range of cultures. One or two, perhaps, would have special circumstances which culturally had emerged, but they would be isolated and, within that community, exceptional. This isn't the case.

O.

[Owlswing]

It's just how people tend to feel subjectively. Many heterosexuals have an inbuilt "disgust" at the idea of having sex with someone of the same sex.

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?  I have yet to meet any such heterosexuals. 

In fact, the heterosexuals I know are actually far more interested in working for things like childrens' rights, healthcare, trade justice, education and overseas aid, and only really take part in a debate like this when they are told what they believe about homosexuality by those who believe that legislation regarding homosexuality has to be changed.

Udayana wasn't talking about what people are interested in working for. She/he (sorry I don't know) was talking about peoples feelings. Talk about tangents that aren't relevant.

From Hope -

Quote - In fact, the heterosexuals I know are actually far more interested in working for things like childrens' rights, healthcare, trade justice, education and overseas aid . . . - Unquote

Holy Moley, does no-one you know do a normal job of work instead of things that they can boast about to show that they are 'more socially aware than thou!'

[Hope]

From Hope -

Quote - In fact, the heterosexuals I know are actually far more interested in working for things like childrens' rights, healthcare, trade justice, education and overseas aid . . . - Unquote

Holy Moley, does no-one you know do a normal job of work instead of things that they can boast about to show that they are 'more socially aware than thou!'

Often these activities are part of their normal, everyday jobs - such as healthcare, education, business and the like.  One doesn't have to separate normal work and these activities.

[Owlswing]

From Hope -

Quote - In fact, the heterosexuals I know are actually far more interested in working for things like childrens' rights, healthcare, trade justice, education and overseas aid . . . - Unquote

Holy Moley, does no-one you know do a normal job of work instead of things that they can boast about to show that they are 'more socially aware than thou!'

Often these activities are part of their normal, everyday jobs - such as healthcare, education, business and the like.  One doesn't have to separate normal work and these activities.

You didn't say that! And you make it sound like every single hetero that you know works in these areas exclusively.

[Udayana]

This link (if it lets you past the NS firewall) is about a general link between "disgust" and moral judgement:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528731-800-the-yuck-factor-the-surprising-power-of-disgust/

and has further links to a couple of relevant papers, eg:
http://www.yale.edu/minddevlab/papers/DS_Gay.pdf

I agree it's not definitive and that something being "natural" doesn't make it any more right or wrong. But I think it is of interest in trying to work out why people behave in one way or another. And, indeed, it is as natural to be gay as straight anyway.

Elsewhere, I expect there are studies showing differences in response to pheromones between straights and gays.

[Owlswing]

Hmm - Straights and gays.

All human males and all human females are physically capable of same sex sexual activity. The physical responses to sexual stimulation in human males and females are the same regardless of which sex the person providing the stimulation is.

Quite some time back, I forget how far, experiments were undertaken in the States during which males and females were sexually stimiulated by both males and females.

Tests were crried out and responses measured.

In the first series of tests the person being stimulated was blindfolded so that they were not aware of the sex of the person stimulating them. The results showed that the intensity of the reaction was far greater when the stimulation was proviided by a person of the same sex.

The tests were then repeated without the blindfolds and quite a few of those being stimulated balked when it came to same sex stimulation despite the fact that they had reacted more tio such stimulatioin when blindfolded. This information was not passed on to the subjects.

This would seem to suggest that revulsion to same sex activity is more a case of nurture rather than nature.

[Udayana]

mmm .. Great, I'll just have to give a try next time then! 

[jakswan]

In fact, the heterosexuals I know are actually far more interested in working for things like childrens' rights, healthcare, trade justice, education and overseas aid, and only really take part in a debate like this when they are told what they believe about homosexuality by those who believe that legislation regarding homosexuality has to be changed.

Lets try how this sounds.

In fact, the white people I know are actually far more interested in working for things like childrens' rights, healthcare, trade justice, education and overseas aid, and only really take part in a debate like this when they are told what they believe about rac e by those who believe that legislation regarding race has to be changed.

Do you see how bad this sounds Hopalong?

[OH MY WORLD!]

What a dishonest, cheap, underhanded and dirty thing you did there Jakie. How childish and pathetic to muddy things with your gutter tabloid approach.

[Aruntraveller]

What a dishonest, cheap, underhanded and dirty thing you did there Jakie. How childish and pathetic to muddy things with your gutter tabloid approach.

Not as cheap as dragging Venables into the argument though.

[Owlswing]

Yes, people really need to leave the Venable alone. They hate being dragged around I hear.

This is low, even for you, so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you have no idea who the Venables mentioned is.

Jon Venables was one of two 10 year old boys who abducted a two year old boy, James Bulger, took him to a disused railway cutting and brutally tortured and murdered him.

Venables was released in 2001, but returned to prison in 2010 on charges relating to child pornography.

May I now suggect that you delete your message!

[OH MY WORLD!]

Thanks Matty,
You are quite correct. I never heard that word before and looked it up and took it to be about an accident prone gangster. And like the moderators, i don't read every post. In this case I'm glad you gave me a heads up about this.
My apologies to trent.

[Nearly Sane]

What a dishonest, cheap, underhanded and dirty thing you did there Jakie. How childish and pathetic to muddy things with your gutter tabloid approach.

In what way is it dishonest?

[Owlswing]

What a dishonest, cheap, underhanded and dirty thing you did there Jakie. How childish and pathetic to muddy things with your gutter tabloid approach.

In what way is it dishonest?

Anything that anyone says that JC disagrees with MUST, by that definition be dishonest or a lie.

[Rhiannon]

Matt,

JC did apologise above for one of his misunderstandings. I think it important to acknowledge that.

[Owlswing]

Thanks Matty,
You are quite correct. I never heard that word before and looked it up and took it to be about an accident prone gangster. And like the moderators, i don't read every post. In this case I'm glad you gave me a heads up about this.
My apologies to trent.

Thanks for that - please do me a favour, offer a prayer for Jamie Bulger's family sometime, huh!

[Rhiannon]

I don't think our nation's ever come to terms with what happened to that little boy. Which makes it all the more sick of Hope to bring it into this discussion.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Dearest Matty,
Tell me about that family, how they are doing and so on. I don't know them nor have I heard their name before. Do you really want me to pray for them? What specifically do they need prayer over? Have they told you they need prayer. Are you praying daily for them?

[Harrowby Hall]

Dearest Matty,
Tell me about that family, how they are doing and so on. I don't know them nor have I heard their name before. Do you really want me to pray for them? What specifically do they need prayer over? Have they told you they need prayer. Are you praying daily for them?

I don't know whether anyone else will share my views here, but I think that one of the tragedies of the Jamie Bulger affair was the way in which Mrs Bulger was trapped by and manipulated by the Murdoch press.

She should have been given the time, space and opportunity to grieve and come to terms with the loss of her child, receiving whatever help she required. Instead every time any story with even the slightest relevence to Jamie's death, she was dragged out, asked for her views and opinions and comments and given every opportunity to revisit her own tragedy for the benefit of the despicable redtops, in particular the Sun.

I believe the family fell apart.

The legal establishment didn't behave much better either. The two 10 year old boys were demonised and became public objects of hatred. When they were transported to courts, large crowds gathered and behaved in threatening and potentially dangerous fashions. They were tried in an adult court using adult criteria of guilt and eventually named. They were then given anonimity for life and served prison sentences.

My opinion is that everything that could have been handled badly in an exptremely sensitive legal situation was handled appallingly.

[Hope]

Lets try how this sounds.

In fact, the white people I know are actually far more interested in working for things like childrens' rights, healthcare, trade justice, education and overseas aid, and only really take part in a debate like this when they are told what they believe about rac e by those who believe that legislation regarding race has to be changed.

Do you see how bad this sounds Hopalong?

It sounds very much like the type of thing that you would suggest that another poster has said in order to make it appear that what they say is invalid.

[Rhiannon]

Dearest Matty,
Tell me about that family, how they are doing and so on. I don't know them nor have I heard their name before. Do you really want me to pray for them? What specifically do they need prayer over? Have they told you they need prayer. Are you praying daily for them?

The family split up not long after they had another child.