Author Topic: Modern Parenting  (Read 19200 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #100 on: August 10, 2015, 10:12:25 PM »
if parents cannot get access to a specialist school then home ed is a better option than seeing a child suffer.
Again this isn't my experience at all. It is often the parents who are deeply resistant to their child going to a special school, even if this really is in the child's best interests. To do so would be to accept the magnitude of the problem.

This is why there is often a big hit on funding for severe SEN by primary schools, which means virtually no funding goes to secondaries. Effectively parents sending their kids to mainstream primaries, despite this being inappropriate and only finally admitting that the child needs to be in a special school when they are at the age to transfer to secondary school.

Rhiannon

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #101 on: August 10, 2015, 10:17:05 PM »
I'm impressed with what I see in my kids' current school with the way the pupils care for each other - they have higher than average numbers of children with SEN. In their last school there was a chd with global development delay who was treated almost like a doll by some of the older girls, but being 'different' in some way singled a child out. Thinking if the behaviour if some of the parents, I think there was something toxic about the mix in the school at the time - in a school of less than 100 pupils I think that can happen.

Some children are never going to be interacting with the big bad world. But otherwise I agree. No matter how hard it was, how frustrated I got with the teaching to the test and the favouritism of some of the staff which held them back, I kept my girls at their old school because they needed to learn how to make friendships and put up with idiots.

Rhiannon

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #102 on: August 10, 2015, 10:20:05 PM »
if parents cannot get access to a specialist school then home ed is a better option than seeing a child suffer.
Again this isn't my experience at all. It is often the parents who are deeply resistant to their child going to a special school, even if this really is in the child's best interests. To do so would be to accept the magnitude of the problem.

This is why there is often a big hit on funding for severe SEN by primary schools, which means virtually no funding goes to secondaries. Effectively parents sending their kids to mainstream primaries, despite this being inappropriate and only finally admitting that the child needs to be in a special school when they are at the age to transfer to secondary school.

Maybe it's a demographic thing? Most parents I know with children with severe SEN want their kids in specialist schools. The child I mentioned earlier got moved to a specialist school once her parents pushed for it.

Rhiannon

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #103 on: August 10, 2015, 10:22:13 PM »
Anyways, I'm off for the night. Thanks for the discussion.  :)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #104 on: August 10, 2015, 10:24:36 PM »
if parents cannot get access to a specialist school then home ed is a better option than seeing a child suffer.
Again this isn't my experience at all. It is often the parents who are deeply resistant to their child going to a special school, even if this really is in the child's best interests. To do so would be to accept the magnitude of the problem.

This is why there is often a big hit on funding for severe SEN by primary schools, which means virtually no funding goes to secondaries. Effectively parents sending their kids to mainstream primaries, despite this being inappropriate and only finally admitting that the child needs to be in a special school when they are at the age to transfer to secondary school.

Maybe it's a demographic thing? Most parents I know with children with severe SEN want their kids in specialist schools. The child I mentioned earlier got moved to a specialist school once her parents pushed for it.
You seem to be arguing against yourself Rhi (or maybe with me) - so you seem to also be implying that once the parents accept the need for a special school they get it. Which is kind of what I am saying - the 'rate limiting' step being getting the parents to accept that a special school is necessary rather than the availability of special school places.

Rhiannon

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #105 on: August 11, 2015, 09:32:51 AM »
if parents cannot get access to a specialist school then home ed is a better option than seeing a child suffer.
Again this isn't my experience at all. It is often the parents who are deeply resistant to their child going to a special school, even if this really is in the child's best interests. To do so would be to accept the magnitude of the problem.

This is why there is often a big hit on funding for severe SEN by primary schools, which means virtually no funding goes to secondaries. Effectively parents sending their kids to mainstream primaries, despite this being inappropriate and only finally admitting that the child needs to be in a special school when they are at the age to transfer to secondary school.

Maybe it's a demographic thing? Most parents I know with children with severe SEN want their kids in specialist schools. The child I mentioned earlier got moved to a specialist school once her parents pushed for it.
You seem to be arguing against yourself Rhi (or maybe with me) - so you seem to also be implying that once the parents accept the need for a special school they get it. Which is kind of what I am saying - the 'rate limiting' step being getting the parents to accept that a special school is necessary rather than the availability of special school places.

No, because in this case the parents wanted the specialist school from the outset, but had to start in mainstream school. Eventually the LEA had a rethink - the parents had the support of the school as they couldn't meet the child's needs.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #106 on: August 11, 2015, 09:50:25 AM »
if parents cannot get access to a specialist school then home ed is a better option than seeing a child suffer.
Again this isn't my experience at all. It is often the parents who are deeply resistant to their child going to a special school, even if this really is in the child's best interests. To do so would be to accept the magnitude of the problem.

This is why there is often a big hit on funding for severe SEN by primary schools, which means virtually no funding goes to secondaries. Effectively parents sending their kids to mainstream primaries, despite this being inappropriate and only finally admitting that the child needs to be in a special school when they are at the age to transfer to secondary school.

Maybe it's a demographic thing? Most parents I know with children with severe SEN want their kids in specialist schools. The child I mentioned earlier got moved to a specialist school once her parents pushed for it.
You seem to be arguing against yourself Rhi (or maybe with me) - so you seem to also be implying that once the parents accept the need for a special school they get it. Which is kind of what I am saying - the 'rate limiting' step being getting the parents to accept that a special school is necessary rather than the availability of special school places.

No, because in this case the parents wanted the specialist school from the outset, but had to start in mainstream school. Eventually the LEA had a rethink - the parents had the support of the school as they couldn't meet the child's needs.
One case perhaps, but in my experience (and perhaps this is an age thing) in my nursery the biggest challenge is usually to get the parents to accept that their child actually has special educational needs. This may be because due to the age of the kids we are the first place to recognise that educational development is not progressing as anticipated. And this isn't just a single case but dozens over the 13 years we have been running the place.

Sometimes it is really frustrating as what the child really needs is some early intervention and actually to be trying to get a statement that will help them greatly as they move into infant school and beyond. But unless the parents are willing to work with you on this there is really very little you can do as an educational professional.

floo

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #107 on: August 11, 2015, 11:36:41 AM »
if parents cannot get access to a specialist school then home ed is a better option than seeing a child suffer.
Again this isn't my experience at all. It is often the parents who are deeply resistant to their child going to a special school, even if this really is in the child's best interests. To do so would be to accept the magnitude of the problem.

This is why there is often a big hit on funding for severe SEN by primary schools, which means virtually no funding goes to secondaries. Effectively parents sending their kids to mainstream primaries, despite this being inappropriate and only finally admitting that the child needs to be in a special school when they are at the age to transfer to secondary school.

Maybe it's a demographic thing? Most parents I know with children with severe SEN want their kids in specialist schools. The child I mentioned earlier got moved to a specialist school once her parents pushed for it.
You seem to be arguing against yourself Rhi (or maybe with me) - so you seem to also be implying that once the parents accept the need for a special school they get it. Which is kind of what I am saying - the 'rate limiting' step being getting the parents to accept that a special school is necessary rather than the availability of special school places.

No, because in this case the parents wanted the specialist school from the outset, but had to start in mainstream school. Eventually the LEA had a rethink - the parents had the support of the school as they couldn't meet the child's needs.
One case perhaps, but in my experience (and perhaps this is an age thing) in my nursery the biggest challenge is usually to get the parents to accept that their child actually has special educational needs. This may be because due to the age of the kids we are the first place to recognise that educational development is not progressing as anticipated. And this isn't just a single case but dozens over the 13 years we have been running the place.

Sometimes it is really frustrating as what the child really needs is some early intervention and actually to be trying to get a statement that will help them greatly as they move into infant school and beyond. But unless the parents are willing to work with you on this there is really very little you can do as an educational professional.

My daughter wanted a statement for her son with Asperger's, trying to get one from her LEA was well nigh impossible because he is extremely intelligent, but suffers from acute anxiety syndrome!

Rhiannon

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #108 on: August 11, 2015, 01:44:32 PM »
if parents cannot get access to a specialist school then home ed is a better option than seeing a child suffer.
Again this isn't my experience at all. It is often the parents who are deeply resistant to their child going to a special school, even if this really is in the child's best interests. To do so would be to accept the magnitude of the problem.

This is why there is often a big hit on funding for severe SEN by primary schools, which means virtually no funding goes to secondaries. Effectively parents sending their kids to mainstream primaries, despite this being inappropriate and only finally admitting that the child needs to be in a special school when they are at the age to transfer to secondary school.

Maybe it's a demographic thing? Most parents I know with children with severe SEN want their kids in specialist schools. The child I mentioned earlier got moved to a specialist school once her parents pushed for it.
You seem to be arguing against yourself Rhi (or maybe with me) - so you seem to also be implying that once the parents accept the need for a special school they get it. Which is kind of what I am saying - the 'rate limiting' step being getting the parents to accept that a special school is necessary rather than the availability of special school places.

No, because in this case the parents wanted the specialist school from the outset, but had to start in mainstream school. Eventually the LEA had a rethink - the parents had the support of the school as they couldn't meet the child's needs.
One case perhaps, but in my experience (and perhaps this is an age thing) in my nursery the biggest challenge is usually to get the parents to accept that their child actually has special educational needs. This may be because due to the age of the kids we are the first place to recognise that educational development is not progressing as anticipated. And this isn't just a single case but dozens over the 13 years we have been running the place.

Sometimes it is really frustrating as what the child really needs is some early intervention and actually to be trying to get a statement that will help them greatly as they move into infant school and beyond. But unless the parents are willing to work with you on this there is really very little you can do as an educational professional.

Is it that the policy of 'inclusion' has been sold to parents as the ideal, when it was/is as much about closing special schools? Three closed in the borough where I used to live and the sites sold for housing.

I do wonder about the demographics of where you and I live also. I've never come across parents who were unwilling for their child to be statemented - I've even got a couple of friends who paid for private assessments because they suspected dyslexia/dyspraxia. I wonder if there is still a fear that a child will be stigmatised, whereas the reality is that children with SEN can fulfil their potential better if they get early intervention, going on to university where appropriate, as my friend's dyslexic son is about to do? Perhaps it is down to a lack of awareness and education.  :-\

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #109 on: August 11, 2015, 01:59:33 PM »
if parents cannot get access to a specialist school then home ed is a better option than seeing a child suffer.
Again this isn't my experience at all. It is often the parents who are deeply resistant to their child going to a special school, even if this really is in the child's best interests. To do so would be to accept the magnitude of the problem.

This is why there is often a big hit on funding for severe SEN by primary schools, which means virtually no funding goes to secondaries. Effectively parents sending their kids to mainstream primaries, despite this being inappropriate and only finally admitting that the child needs to be in a special school when they are at the age to transfer to secondary school.

Maybe it's a demographic thing? Most parents I know with children with severe SEN want their kids in specialist schools. The child I mentioned earlier got moved to a specialist school once her parents pushed for it.
You seem to be arguing against yourself Rhi (or maybe with me) - so you seem to also be implying that once the parents accept the need for a special school they get it. Which is kind of what I am saying - the 'rate limiting' step being getting the parents to accept that a special school is necessary rather than the availability of special school places.

No, because in this case the parents wanted the specialist school from the outset, but had to start in mainstream school. Eventually the LEA had a rethink - the parents had the support of the school as they couldn't meet the child's needs.
One case perhaps, but in my experience (and perhaps this is an age thing) in my nursery the biggest challenge is usually to get the parents to accept that their child actually has special educational needs. This may be because due to the age of the kids we are the first place to recognise that educational development is not progressing as anticipated. And this isn't just a single case but dozens over the 13 years we have been running the place.

Sometimes it is really frustrating as what the child really needs is some early intervention and actually to be trying to get a statement that will help them greatly as they move into infant school and beyond. But unless the parents are willing to work with you on this there is really very little you can do as an educational professional.

Is it that the policy of 'inclusion' has been sold to parents as the ideal, when it was/is as much about closing special schools? Three closed in the borough where I used to live and the sites sold for housing.

I do wonder about the demographics of where you and I live also. I've never come across parents who were unwilling for their child to be statemented - I've even got a couple of friends who paid for private assessments because they suspected dyslexia/dyspraxia. I wonder if there is still a fear that a child will be stigmatised, whereas the reality is that children with SEN can fulfil their potential better if they get early intervention, going on to university where appropriate, as my friend's dyslexic son is about to do? Perhaps it is down to a lack of awareness and education.  :-\
I don't think this is necessarily down to demographics, but possible down to the age of the child.

Remember at our nursery we are talking about children perhaps just 2-3 years old, so at the very earliest point where developmental educational needs may be being identified that could lead to a statement. This is the age at which you very typically get reluctance from parents to even countenance the possibility that their child may have SEN.

Rhiannon

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #110 on: August 11, 2015, 02:07:34 PM »
Possibly. Most people I know started asking for intervention in reception, but then when my kids were nursery age many families used the village pre-school, whose staff were generally unqualified mums earning some pocket money.

floo

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #111 on: August 11, 2015, 02:11:07 PM »
My kids attended play groups as they were in those days. The girls got very bored of them pretty quickly!

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #112 on: August 11, 2015, 03:06:04 PM »
Possibly. Most people I know started asking for intervention in reception, but then when my kids were nursery age many families used the village pre-school, whose staff were generally unqualified mums earning some pocket money.
Which may the reason for the difference in our experience.

Sure it is very unlikely that an unqualified and inexperienced mum working in a pre-school (sounds more like a play group if there weren't qualified people) would pick up on developmental educational issues at the age of 2 or 3, so they'd only be picked up when their kids were exposed to the trained professionals in reception class.

But that isn't what our nursery is like. All staff are qualified (to differing degrees) and the nursery is lead by two fully qualified and highly experienced teachers with early years specialism. So it isn't surprising that we pick up issues that your more ad hoc pre-school wouldn't.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 03:13:00 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #113 on: August 11, 2015, 03:14:22 PM »
My kids attended play groups as they were in those days. The girls got very bored of them pretty quickly!
There is a world of difference between a play group and a proper pre-school nursery.

Outrider

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #114 on: August 11, 2015, 03:24:06 PM »
Is it that the policy of 'inclusion' has been sold to parents as the ideal, when it was/is as much about closing special schools? Three closed in the borough where I used to live and the sites sold for housing.

I have mixed feelings about this, mainly because it's difficult to get to the root of what the real purpose is/was.

We have two children on the autistic spectrum, both were offered mainstream places. I can see that there are children whose conditions are limiting who are nonetheless capable academically (and socially) of coping with mainstream school - to exclude them is to segregate them, to make them different, to isolate 'normal' children from the experience of disability, and that's not a good thing.

On the other hand there are children who, with the best will in the world, will not benefit significantly from exposure to mainstream schooling but whose presence would - does, in some instances - jeapordise the education of the children around them.

Mrs. O. works in education and has seen this first-hand, and we know from our own that whilst one of children struggled but came good in mainstream, the other would have wasted everyone's time.

What was needed, I think, in the 'Push for Inclusion' was a firmer stance against schools complaining of the cost/difficulty of adapting to children with (particularly) physical needs, rather than a blanket 'let the parents choose' policy.

As a parent I know the pressure to pretend like nothing's wrong, to hope rather than reason, and that helps no-one. There is a place for professional assessment, but there is also a place for professional support mechanisms.

Learning Support Assistants in schools are, generally, wonderful people, but they got into the work to help small groups of kids catch up: they didn't sign up to be care assistants, and they sure as hell aren't paid anything like a going rate for that sort of work, but that's increasingly what they end up doing.

O.
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floo

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #115 on: August 11, 2015, 03:31:33 PM »
My kids attended play groups as they were in those days. The girls got very bored of them pretty quickly!
There is a world of difference between a play group and a proper pre-school nursery.

My dear I am quite well aware of that! There weren't pre school nurseries around so much in the 70s and 80s when my kids were young.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2015, 03:40:00 PM »
My kids attended play groups as they were in those days. The girls got very bored of them pretty quickly!
There is a world of difference between a play group and a proper pre-school nursery.

My dear I am quite well aware of that! There weren't pre school nurseries around so much in the 70s and 80s when my kids were young.
Indeed, and if there were perhaps your daughter would have loved it and wouldn't have been bored for a second!

floo

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #117 on: August 11, 2015, 03:50:36 PM »
My kids attended play groups as they were in those days. The girls got very bored of them pretty quickly!
There is a world of difference between a play group and a proper pre-school nursery.

My dear I am quite well aware of that! There weren't pre school nurseries around so much in the 70s and 80s when my kids were young.
Indeed, and if there were perhaps your daughter would have loved it and wouldn't have been bored for a second!

I am sure they would have done, but as there wasn't and the school starting age in the UK was five in those days, the two older girls went to my island home when they were four, which was the school starting age there. They both had a great time, and then went to UK primary schools when they were five.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Modern Parenting
« Reply #118 on: August 11, 2015, 04:16:16 PM »
Is it that the policy of 'inclusion' has been sold to parents as the ideal, when it was/is as much about closing special schools? Three closed in the borough where I used to live and the sites sold for housing.

I have mixed feelings about this, mainly because it's difficult to get to the root of what the real purpose is/was.

We have two children on the autistic spectrum, both were offered mainstream places. I can see that there are children whose conditions are limiting who are nonetheless capable academically (and socially) of coping with mainstream school - to exclude them is to segregate them, to make them different, to isolate 'normal' children from the experience of disability, and that's not a good thing.

On the other hand there are children who, with the best will in the world, will not benefit significantly from exposure to mainstream schooling but whose presence would - does, in some instances - jeapordise the education of the children around them.

Mrs. O. works in education and has seen this first-hand, and we know from our own that whilst one of children struggled but came good in mainstream, the other would have wasted everyone's time.

What was needed, I think, in the 'Push for Inclusion' was a firmer stance against schools complaining of the cost/difficulty of adapting to children with (particularly) physical needs, rather than a blanket 'let the parents choose' policy.

As a parent I know the pressure to pretend like nothing's wrong, to hope rather than reason, and that helps no-one. There is a place for professional assessment, but there is also a place for professional support mechanisms.

Learning Support Assistants in schools are, generally, wonderful people, but they got into the work to help small groups of kids catch up: they didn't sign up to be care assistants, and they sure as hell aren't paid anything like a going rate for that sort of work, but that's increasingly what they end up doing.

O.
I'd agree with pretty well everything there.

I do think that there should be a presumption toward trying to educate within mainstream schools, and only to consider special schooling if this is clearly not appropriate or demonstrated not to be working.

Interesting about resources. This is a big issue for schools. So the approach where I am is that funding is based on a 'predicted' number of kids with SEN rather than actual numbers. And that prediction is based on demographics etc. So a school that (for whatever reason) has a reputation of providing good SEN provision may end up with significantly more SEN kids (as parents use their 'golden ticket') yet get absolutely no more resource. The flip side being a school that makes it pretty clear that they aren't really interested in SEN who therefore get very few but may have the same resource.

If schools are to be able to support SEN kids and be encouraged to try to do their best for them then funding must follow the actual SEN kids, not hypothetical ones.