Mary

[Andy]

If the story you 'know' isn't true then it really doesn't matter what speculations you ascribe to the characters that feature in the story.

And what evidence do you have for it not being true?

Is Gordon allowed to use 'supranatural' evidence?

[Rhiannon]

Alan,
Please provide scripture verses that support the notion of praying to dead people and they acting as a go between us and God. Why would God have the spirits of dead people doing for us? That's one of the jobs of His angels. And we know angels are not to be prayed to nor worshipped.

-
JC:
I'm with you 100%.
However, I have many Christian friends who are RC, and have worshipped with them; just as they have also worshipped in my church.
I don't understand Mariology, and have no interest in the RC concept of 'saint', finding no real scriptural basis for adoration or intercessory prayer.
Like you, I accept that prayer can be addressed to God alone.
However, I recognise the genuine devotion to Mary inculcated in many (though not all ) RC Christians, while having absolutely no part in it mysellf.

I think that what is undeniable is that many Christians (RCs for example) have spiritual experiences that go beyond scripture. It may be as a result of expectation, but it feels very real, just as it feels real when you encounter Christ through scripture.

[Rhiannon]

Hey Mr. Gonna,
Thanks for calling me boy. People are always telling me i look about 15yrs younger than I am. Walking like my shoelaces are tied together? No, being a halfbreed, I'm as sure footed as a mountain goat. And quiet too, a good stalker of prey. You think me chucking Ava Maria in the garbage is silly? Iv'e been to Scotlandlandshire grandpa, it was a hoot!!

It's only a piece of music with some poetry. It can't hurt you.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jim,

Powwow would make an excellent orangeman, hell!! That mob would probably allow him to carry his six shooter.

Dear Powwow,

Practice whistling As We go Marching through Georgia for the next time you visit our sunny shores.

Gonnagle.

[ad_orientem]

I'd agree with Hope on #27, but only add that there is not a shred of evidence that Mary remained a virgin contained in Scripture - and quite a lot of evidence that Jesus was the eldest of a series of siblings.

That's because you read the scriptures incorrectly, that is apart from the Church.

-
Apart from your branch of the Church?
Yes.
Other equally valid branches are available.

Branches? Bollocks! There are no branches. Branch theory equals incoherent ecclesiology or fudge.

"I am the Vine, and you are the branches..."

Er......

The Church is one. There is only one body of Christ , not thousands all preaching a different Gospel.

[Hope]

Is Gordon allowed to use 'supranatural' evidence?

I suppose it depends on whether he feels comfortable using it   

[Hope]

Here's something original: instead of repeating the same word three times, why not have a go at answering Floo's points assertions if you think you're up to it?

FIFY, Shaker.

[BashfulAnthony]

Here's something original: instead of repeating the same word three times, why not have a go at answering Floo's points assertions if you think you're up to it?

FIFY, Shaker.

I'm still waiting for replies from you.  You never answer anything difficult, and I suppose Floo has learned from you. Or is it the other way round?

[Shaker]

Here's something original: instead of repeating the same word three times, why not have a go at answering Floo's points assertions if you think you're up to it?

FIFY, Shaker.

You've done no such thing. If you want to make a statement of your own, make it without altering somebody else's posts to make them read what you want them to say rather than how they were originally written, especially in such a lazy and thoughtless manner as simply typing four letters and thinking you've made a point.

I don't do it to your posts; I expect the same of mine. String a sentence or two together in your own words, put some effort in, or don't bother and get back to your O-level in rattling a collection tin or whatever it is.

[Shaker]

Here's something original: instead of repeating the same word three times, why not have a go at answering Floo's points assertions if you think you're up to it?

FIFY, Shaker.

I'm still waiting for replies from you.  You never answer anything difficult, and I suppose Floo has learned from you. Or is it the other way round?

Replies to what?

[Hope]

I don't do it to your posts; I expect the same of mine. String a sentence or two together in your own words, put some effort in, or don"t bother and get back to your O-level in rattling a collection tin or whatever it is.

Sorry, Shaker, but since I have done what you have suggested several times before - and not only myself, and had those carefully crafted sentences ignored, I thought I'd try a rather more direct method.  By responding as you have, you have highlighted the very issue that several of us have been trying to get over to folk here for several months.  Thanks.

[BashfulAnthony]

Here's something original: instead of repeating the same word three times, why not have a go at answering Floo's points assertions if you think you're up to it?

FIFY, Shaker.

I'm still waiting for replies from you.  You never answer anything difficult, and I suppose Floo has learned from you. Or is it the other way round?

Replies to what?

Excellent!  As expected, play the dumb card  -  and you do it so well!

[Shaker]

Ah; replies to nothing at all - as expected.

[Shaker]

Sorry, Shaker, but since I have done what you have suggested several times before - and not only myself, and had those carefully crafted sentences ignored, I thought I'd try a rather more direct method.

Carefully crafted but without any substantive content and replete with howling logical fallacies if your usual performance is anything to go by.

[Gordon]

Is Gordon allowed to use 'supranatural' evidence?

I suppose it depends on whether he feels comfortable using it   

Super - so, Hope, what would this 'supranatural evidence' look like, and how could I be sure it was valid in evidential terms?

[OH MY WORLD!]

Anchorman and grandpa Gonnagle,
Oh I have no doubts that I will find some Catholics in Heaven. My adopted family, dad's side, were not convinced of that. One branch were Presbyterians from Ballymoney the other Methodists from Wicklow. The southern branch were targeted by the Catholics. Why? Because they were anti Rome landowners. But no Gonna, Metis don't march!! We jig!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBX-uGon8F0

[Sassy]

I believe she is extraordinary! We are haunted by Victorian-style images of motherhood displaying her as soft and meek, but I believe she must have been as hard as nails to do what she did. The magnificat shows her to be a true revolutionary who accepted with both hands the role she could play in bringing about a better world. She informs my socialism as well as my Catholicism, as does her son, who learned his values and his heritage at her knee.

Not really....


King James Bible
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Then there is;-Simeon.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Mary was aware that something terrible was to befall, Christ.

Not hard as nails... she was like Abraham and Sara both whom knew and trusted the LORD.
Women of faith who knew that God planned only good and that Jesus was Gods Son.
A sword could not pierce through her soul if she was hard as nails...

[Sassy]

Waiting for the BLACK MADONNA part....

[OH MY WORLD!]

OH WOW, this is too funny, you have to watch this lady jig to to the Red River Jig!!
I think I knew her in my wild days. She was a pole dancer in Indian Cabins or Paddle Prairie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ0wUdVrqKE

[Rhiannon]

Waiting for the BLACK MADONNA part....

Come on then, Sass, tell us all about them.

[Alan Burns]

Alan,
Please provide scripture verses that support the notion of praying to dead people and they acting as a go between us and God. Why would God have the spirits of dead people doing for us? That's one of the jobs of His angels. And we know angels are not to be prayed to nor worshipped.

-
JC:
I'm with you 100%.
However, I have many Christian friends who are RC, and have worshipped with them; just as they have also worshipped in my church.
I don't understand Mariology, and have no interest in the RC concept of 'saint', finding no real scriptural basis for adoration or intercessory prayer.
Like you, I accept that prayer can be addressed to God alone.
However, I recognise the genuine devotion to Mary inculcated in many (though not all ) RC Christians, while having absolutely no part in it mysellf.

I concede that there are no scripture verses that support the concept of praying to souls in heaven.  I just grew up with the notion that asking saints to intercede for us was normal, and was surprised when in my early twenties I discovered that not all Christians did this.  But for me I can't deride it because I have found it to be successful on many occasions, but there is never any doubt in my mind that it is ultimately God's power which answers the prayers.

[Anchorman]

Absolutely, Alan. Like you, I know God hears every prayer we pray.
I. too was raised in a Christian tradition, though always allowed to explore faith for myself.
Although my mother (who raised me after my dad died when I was four) was a member of the Church of Scotland, she was adopted by a Roman Catholic couple....who continued to allow her to be a Kirk goer, from a very early age - a very unusual occurance (on either 'side') in the 1930s.

Consequently I grew oup without the sectarian bile which sadly infests the West of Scotland, and with many RC cousins who are more like blood brother and sisters to me (being an only child).
I've worshipped in RC churches since I was a child - I well remember the old Latin Mass, and being relieved that my cousins were just as baffled by it as I was!
That's why I used 'inculcated'. When I was a child, I stayed in their house (first in Govan, then Pollock, Gooners") and remember Marian statuettes from Lourdes in every bedroom.
I don't condemn anyone's devotion to the concept - but simply see no Scriptural basis for it.

[Anchorman]

I'd agree with Hope on #27, but only add that there is not a shred of evidence that Mary remained a virgin contained in Scripture - and quite a lot of evidence that Jesus was the eldest of a series of siblings.

That's because you read the scriptures incorrectly, that is apart from the Church.

-
Apart from your branch of the Church?
Yes.
Other equally valid branches are available.

Branches? Bollocks! There are no branches. Branch theory equals incoherent ecclesiology or fudge.

"I am the Vine, and you are the branches..."

Er......

The Church is one. There is only one body of Christ , not thousands all preaching a different Gospel.

-
And there is nothing in that Gospel to show the ongoing interest in the Marian veneration or the idea of a 'perpetual virgin'.
(Unless your version of the four Gospels differs from mine)

[Sassy]

Alan,
Please provide scripture verses that support the notion of praying to dead people and they acting as a go between us and God. Why would God have the spirits of dead people doing for us? That's one of the jobs of His angels. And we know angels are not to be prayed to nor worshipped.

-
JC:
I'm with you 100%.
However, I have many Christian friends who are RC, and have worshipped with them; just as they have also worshipped in my church.
I don't understand Mariology, and have no interest in the RC concept of 'saint', finding no real scriptural basis for adoration or intercessory prayer.
Like you, I accept that prayer can be addressed to God alone.
However, I recognise the genuine devotion to Mary inculcated in many (though not all ) RC Christians, while having absolutely no part in it mysellf.

I concede that there are no scripture verses that support the concept of praying to souls in heaven.  I just grew up with the notion that asking saints to intercede for us was normal, and was surprised when in my early twenties I discovered that not all Christians did this.  But for me I can't deride it because I have found it to be successful on many occasions, but there is never any doubt in my mind that it is ultimately God's power which answers the prayers.

You cannot pray to dead people.


King James 2000 Bible
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

The prayers of people on earth OT and NT ascended with incense.
9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.


Incense always burned at the time of prayers in the Temple. The prayers of the saints ascended not praying to the saints... That is a made up Roman Catholic concept.
3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.

There is ONE intercessor between God and Man....

[ad_orientem]

I'd agree with Hope on #27, but only add that there is not a shred of evidence that Mary remained a virgin contained in Scripture - and quite a lot of evidence that Jesus was the eldest of a series of siblings.

That's because you read the scriptures incorrectly, that is apart from the Church.

-
Apart from your branch of the Church?
Yes.
Other equally valid branches are available.

Branches? Bollocks! There are no branches. Branch theory equals incoherent ecclesiology or fudge.

"I am the Vine, and you are the branches..."

Er......

The Church is one. There is only one body of Christ , not thousands all preaching a different Gospel.

-
And there is nothing in that Gospel to show the ongoing interest in the Marian veneration or the idea of a 'perpetual virgin'.
(Unless your version of the four Gospels differs from mine)

The perpetual virginity of the Blessed Theotokos is a natural consequence of bearing God in her womb.