Mary

[Owlswing]

Why does nobody here ever seem to mention her? How do posters regard her?

Theotokos, that is, Godbearer. Ever-virgin without blemish, that is, in the words of the seventh ecumencal council against the Iconoclasts.

Yeah, it took the Christian Church a thousand years, well 787 years, to come up with this in one of the major re-writings/editings of the Bible, done to make it fit the standards and opinions of the hierarchy of the time. Not for the first time and not for the last either!

[Hope]

I think Mary was likely to have been a very young girl, probably lower than the age of consent in the UK today. She found herself pregnant by Joseph, or another human male, before she was wed! I suspect the 'god wot did it' fantasy was put around to cover the fact of the shameful conception of Jesus, as it would have been considered in those days.

And your assumption would barely be half correct, Floo.  For one thing, Jewish betrothal was and still is far closer to the modern concept of marriage than to the modern concept of engagement.  For a Jewish couple who have become betrothed, to break that bond requires divorce.  What is different is that physical consummation of that bond will not have taken place.  Traditionally, the bethrothal ceremony would take place (and that would be legally binding) and the groom would then return to his familial home and build a new residence (often an extension to the family home).  Only when his father was happy with the status of this extension, would the groom then go and collect his wife and bring her to her new home.

Regarding the comment about 'age of consent', the age of puberty and maturity have jumped all over the place - especially for women - over the last few thousand years.  At a time when life expectancy was probably about half that of today, the age at which a girl was capable of bearing children was likely considerably less than it is nowadays, and with it the age of consent (if that concept existed in the same way as it does today). 

[Hope]

Yeah, it took the Christian Church a thousand years, well 787 years, to come up with this in one of the major re-writings/editings of the Bible, done to make it fit the standards and opinions of the hierarchy of the time. Not for the first time and not for the last either!

Not quite true, Matt.  Origen, who died circa 250 AD, is thought to be the first person to have 'coined' the term, and it was used by several Church Fathers in the 4th century AD and beyond. 

It was first formally affirmed at the Council of Ephesus in 431.  Interestingly, its proper theological meaning is "the one who gives birth to the one who is God", so even the modern Orthodox understanding is somewhat skewed, since it originally had nothing to do with 'ever-virgin' status. 

Furthermore, the actual term appears nowhere in the Bible - so can't have had anything to do with your so-called 'major re-writings/editings of the Bible'.

[ad_orientem]

Why does nobody here ever seem to mention her? How do posters regard her?

Theotokos, that is, Godbearer. Ever-virgin without blemish, that is, in the words of the seventh ecumencal council against the Iconoclasts.

Yeah, it took the Christian Church a thousand years, well 787 years, to come up with this in one of the major re-writings/editings of the Bible, done to make it fit the standards and opinions of the hierarchy of the time. Not for the first time and not for the last either!

Most of those terms are much earlier than that, especially in the Syriac liturgy. Anyway, the date of any definition is really of little relevance because it ignores how the Church does these things. In otherwords, the Church defines in the face of heresy.

[Anchorman]

I'd agree with Hope on #27, but only add that there is not a shred of evidence that Mary remained a virgin contained in Scripture - and quite a lot of evidence that Jesus was the eldest of a series of siblings.

[ad_orientem]

I'd agree with Hope on #27, but only add that there is not a shred of evidence that Mary remained a virgin contained in Scripture - and quite a lot of evidence that Jesus was the eldest of a series of siblings.

That's because you read the scriptures incorrectly, that is apart from the Church.

[Owlswing]

#29 and #30

 So even Christians can't agree on the truth or otherwise of the Bible, so why should anyone else!

[Hope]

#29 and #30

 So even Christians can't agree on the truth or otherwise of the Bible, so why should anyone else!

So,Matt, does this mean that, because different British citizens interpret/understand British law in different ways that that law oughtn't to listened to? 

[Shaker]

Laws are made by fallible, information-limited people for other fallible and information-limited people, and are sometimes sufficiently badly worded as to be open to interpretation.

These are not factors we'd expect of a supremely wise creator of the universe with a specific message to get across, are they?

[Hope]

These are not factors we'd expect of a supremely wise creator of the universe with a specific message to get across, are they?

How 'specific', as you say, is the message?  For instance, doesn't it differ to some degree between people who understand the concept of animal slaughter and those who don't; or between those with power and those without?

[Shaker]

How 'specific', as you say, is the message?

That's precisely the sort of thing you'd expect a deity to know if such a thing existed. I go to some considerable trouble to write as clearly and as simply as I can, even if it means writing at greater length than otherwise (I strive to be brief and become obscure, as the old Roman put it), because it's vitally important to convey your meaning accurately and to reduce the risk of ambiguity, misunderstanding and other forms of unclarity to the very lowest possible level. And I'm just an ordinary Joe with an excellent command of English, great critical thinking skills, a laptop and a smartphone.

Don't you think a deity could do even better?

[Hope]

I go to some considerable trouble to write as clearly and as simply as I can, even if it means writing at greater length than otherwise (I strive to be brief and become obscure, as the old Roman put it), because it's vitally important to convey your meaning accurately and to reduce the risk of ambiguity, misunderstanding and other forms of unclarity to the very lowest possible level. And I'm just an ordinary Joe with an excellent command of English, great critical thinking skills, a laptop and a smartphone.

Don't you think a deity could do even better?

How many people and how many cultural contexts are you addressing when you communicate, Shaker?  Let's take this forum as your 'zone' of communication.

[Shaker]

How many people and how many cultural contexts are you addressing when you communicate, Shaker?  Let's take this forum as your 'zone' of communication.

An entirely irrelevant point to an all-knowing deity, surely? Or perhaps it isn't all-knowing after all and is a bit of a duffer with languages, and doesn't care about poor or mistranslation, ambiguity and so forth. Seems more likely, doesn't it?

[Hope]

How many people and how many cultural contexts are you addressing when you communicate, Shaker?  Let's take this forum as your 'zone' of communication.

An entirely irrelevant point to an all-knowing deity, surely? Or perhaps it isn't all-knowing after all and is a bit of a duffer with languages, and doesn't care about poor or mistranslation, ambiguity and so forth. Seems more likely, doesn't it?

No, it doesn't seem more likely; rather it seems as if we have a deity here who realised that language was never going to stand still and that it was therefore going to be very difficult to satisfy everyone.  Furthermore, we have a deity who clearly appreciated that these humans were going to use the very brains that he had given them to think things through.

[Anchorman]

I'd agree with Hope on #27, but only add that there is not a shred of evidence that Mary remained a virgin contained in Scripture - and quite a lot of evidence that Jesus was the eldest of a series of siblings.

That's because you read the scriptures incorrectly, that is apart from the Church.

-
Apart from your branch of the Church?
Yes.
Other equally valid branches are available.

[floo]

I think Mary was likely to have been a very young girl, probably lower than the age of consent in the UK today. She found herself pregnant by Joseph, or another human male, before she was wed! I suspect the 'god wot did it' fantasy was put around to cover the fact of the shameful conception of Jesus, as it would have been considered in those days.

And your assumption would barely be half correct, Floo.  For one thing, Jewish betrothal was and still is far closer to the modern concept of marriage than to the modern concept of engagement.  For a Jewish couple who have become betrothed, to break that bond requires divorce.  What is different is that physical consummation of that bond will not have taken place.  Traditionally, the bethrothal ceremony would take place (and that would be legally binding) and the groom would then return to his familial home and build a new residence (often an extension to the family home).  Only when his father was happy with the status of this extension, would the groom then go and collect his wife and bring her to her new home.

Regarding the comment about 'age of consent', the age of puberty and maturity have jumped all over the place - especially for women - over the last few thousand years.  At a time when life expectancy was probably about half that of today, the age at which a girl was capable of bearing children was likely considerably less than it is nowadays, and with it the age of consent (if that concept existed in the same way as it does today).

Well Joseph didn't appear too happy at first that Mary was in the family way, did he?

[Shaker]

That language doesn't stand still is no get-out clause - remember that we're supposed to be dealing with an entity here which knows everything and can do anything (or anything logically possible at any rate). Getting the message across with absolute clarity, no scope for ambiguity or error, in every language and dialect ever known would not be an issue, would it? What is "very difficult" for such an entity?

Instead this alleged entity allows humans to "think things through" to the point of torturing and murdering each other in number over differing translations of the same obscure texts in ancient languages. Great.

[BashfulAnthony]

How 'specific', as you say, is the message?

That's precisely the sort of thing you'd expect a deity to know if such a thing existed. I go to some considerable trouble to write as clearly and as simply as I can, even if it means writing at greater length than otherwise (I strive to be brief and become obscure, as the old Roman put it), because it's vitally important to convey your meaning accurately and to reduce the risk of ambiguity, misunderstanding and other forms of unclarity to the very lowest possible level. And I'm just an ordinary Joe with an excellent command of English, great critical thinking skills, a laptop and a smartphone.

Don't you think a deity could do even better?

You are as brief and concise as Professor Stanley Unwin!

[ad_orientem]

I'd agree with Hope on #27, but only add that there is not a shred of evidence that Mary remained a virgin contained in Scripture - and quite a lot of evidence that Jesus was the eldest of a series of siblings.

That's because you read the scriptures incorrectly, that is apart from the Church.

-
Apart from your branch of the Church?
Yes.
Other equally valid branches are available.

Branches? Bollocks! There are no branches. Branch theory equals incoherent ecclesiology or fudge.

[Shaker]

There's nothing like Christian unity.

[Rhiannon]

I'd agree with Hope on #27, but only add that there is not a shred of evidence that Mary remained a virgin contained in Scripture - and quite a lot of evidence that Jesus was the eldest of a series of siblings.

My aunt was 'churched after having my cousin. This notion of perpetual virginity has rendered women as dirty and childbirth as shameful, even within marriage. We are still battling against this attitude even now.

[OH MY WORLD!]

"churched"
An old Catholic and Orthodox tradition that they got from Jewish purity laws. Which explains why I know of no woman ever being "churched" in my family. The ladies I know would never have gone for something like that. They were and are, each one, a force to be reckoned with. (some owning their own rifles)

Prayers to Mary? Good grief no! I recall finding the sheet music to Ava Maria when going through the piano bench at my church one Saturday night. The next day before going to church I mentioned it to dad. He kinda frowned and then I told him I had put it in the garbage. "Fine" was his reply. I think dad had a few words with the music director that morning at church because he seemed to avoid me for weeks.

[Rhiannon]

There are lots of report of Marian Apparitions:
In addition to the famous ones of Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugore, there have been hundreds reported:
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/aprtable.html

Just wondered if there are any strong views?

Alan, I have never seen any apparitions; but many years ago, when my husband and I were struggling with issues to do with one of our lads, on several occasions I had a sense of the presence of Mary. It's hard to describe, but the presence seemed to have a strength - quite overwhelming - that gave me strength, and was certainly a factor in getting us through that difficult time.

It's interesting, when I've been in moments of crisis in the past four or five years I've felt a strong female presence. Not Mary, I wouldn't have said, but very definitely feminine.

I'm aware that there is no evidence that this exists outside of my own mind, but it helped me when I needed it.

[Rhiannon]

"churched"
An old Catholic and Orthodox tradition that they got from Jewish purity laws. Which explains why I know of no woman ever being "churched" in my family. The ladies I know would never have gone for something like that. They were and are, each one, a force to be reckoned with. (some owning their own rifles)

Prayers to Mary? Good grief no! I recall finding the sheet music to Ava Maria when going through the piano bench at my church one Saturday night. The next day before going to church I mentioned it to dad. He kinda frowned and then I told him I had put it in the garbage. "Fine" was his reply. I think dad had a few words with the music director that morning at church because he seemed to avoid me for weeks.

It's a beautiful piece of music though. If you don't believe it then that is all it is - it doesn't possess magic powers or anything.

[Shaker]

Which one though? There are loads (beside the famous one by Gounod).