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Author Topic: Mary  (Read 62699 times)

Rhiannon

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Mary
« on: August 08, 2015, 08:21:14 PM »
Why does nobody here ever seem to mention her? How do posters regard her?
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Anchorman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2015, 08:24:16 PM »
As an ordinary woman chosen by God for an extraordinary purpose.
That's about it, really.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Mary
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2015, 08:27:49 PM »
How do you feel about the loss she was asked to bear? Beginning with her son choosing the life of an itinerant preacher of course, but then witnessing his death?

Do you think she should be a focus of prayer or meditation for Christian women? Or people who need a mother figure?
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Anchorman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2015, 08:35:46 PM »
She went through the terrible loss of bereavement...probably she had been somewhat bamboozled by her son's behaviour.
She may have tried to keep the family together, as there was some disbelief amongst Jesus' siblings.

As for a focus of prayer?
Nothing in Scripture leads me to that conclusion.
From what I've read of church history, Mary seems to have been promoted by those who felt a substitute for the mother goddess was needed, and elevated Mary, without any real Scriptural evidence, to fit the bill.

Early statues of theMary with the infant Christ bear a striking resemblence to similar statues of the Egyptian mother goddess Isis, nursing the infant Horus - a couplet which had been Hellenised, Romanised, and spread as a 'mystery cult' throughout the Empire in thefirst three centuries AD.
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"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

cyberman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2015, 08:37:13 PM »
I believe she is extraordinary! We are haunted by Victorian-style images of motherhood displaying her as soft and meek, but I believe she must have been as hard as nails to do what she did. The magnificat shows her to be a true revolutionary who accepted with both hands the role she could play in bringing about a better world. She informs my socialism as well as my Catholicism, as does her son, who learned his values and his heritage at her knee.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Mary
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2015, 08:40:06 PM »
Anchorman, do you think it would be acceptable, even beneficial, to have another idea of the divine feminine within Christianity?

Incidentally, some neo-pagans include Mary in their pantheon, especially those who follow a Goddess path.
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Anchorman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2015, 08:42:37 PM »
Rhi.
"divine feminine"?
Although we use the honourific 'He' when refering to God, He is niether masculine nor feminine.
Since there is but One Lord and King, I see nothing in Scripture about a queen.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 08:46:26 PM by Anchorman »
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"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: Mary
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2015, 08:43:32 PM »
Quote from: cyberman on August 08, 2015, 08:37:13 PM
I believe she is extraordinary! We are haunted by Victorian-style images of motherhood displaying her as soft and meek, but I believe she must have been as hard as nails to do what she did. The magnificat shows her to be a true revolutionary who accepted with both hands the role she could play in bringing about a better world. She informs my socialism as well as my Catholicism, as does her son, who learned his values and his heritage at her knee.

Yes, meek and obedient doesn't cut it for me either. Assuming that the basic history of Jesus' life is correct she must have been remarkable.
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cyberman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2015, 08:43:44 PM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:40:06 PM
Anchorman, do you think it would be acceptable, even beneficial, to have another idea of the divine feminine within Christianity?

As Anchorman has pointed out, God is not masculine, and Mary is not divine
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Rhiannon

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Re: Mary
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2015, 08:45:15 PM »
Quote from: Anchorman on August 08, 2015, 08:42:37 PM
Rhi.
"divine finine"?
Although we use the honourific 'He' when refering to God, He is niether masculine nor feminine.
Since there is but One Lord and King, I see nothing in Scripture about a queen.

Sorry, posting on my phone. Anyway, we got what I meant.

So when we are made in God's image that doesn't include females?
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cyberman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2015, 08:47:50 PM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
So when we are made in God's image that doesn't include females?

Wrong; that does include females. As Anchorman has pointed out, God is not masculine.
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Anchorman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2015, 08:48:15 PM »
Where did I say that, Rhi?
The 'image of God' is not physical....after all, were it so, we'd all look like clones!
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"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Alan Burns

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Re: Mary
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2015, 08:56:43 PM »
There are lots of report of Marian Apparitions:
In addition to the famous ones of Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugore, there have been hundreds reported:
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/aprtable.html

Just wondered if there are any strong views?
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Rhiannon

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Re: Mary
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2015, 08:59:08 PM »
It's very difficult not to view as masculine a god who is referred to as 'Father' and 'He/Him'. If God is neither then why not add in 'Her' somewhere?
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Rhiannon

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Re: Mary
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2015, 09:00:53 PM »
Quote from: cyberman on August 08, 2015, 08:47:50 PM
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
So when we are made in God's image that doesn't include females?

Wrong; that does include females. As Anchorman has pointed out, God is not masculine.

Sorry again, not seeing everything on my phone screen properly.
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SweetPea

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Re: Mary
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2015, 09:52:58 PM »
Quote from: Alan Burns on August 08, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
There are lots of report of Marian Apparitions:
In addition to the famous ones of Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugore, there have been hundreds reported:
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/aprtable.html

Just wondered if there are any strong views?

Alan, I have never seen any apparitions; but many years ago, when my husband and I were struggling with issues to do with one of our lads, on several occasions I had a sense of the presence of Mary. It's hard to describe, but the presence seemed to have a strength - quite overwhelming - that gave me strength, and was certainly a factor in getting us through that difficult time.
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Anchorman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2015, 10:08:26 PM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:59:08 PM
It's very difficult not to view as masculine a god who is referred to as 'Father' and 'He/Him'. If God is neither then why not add in 'Her' somewhere?


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Because that is not how either the Hebrew or Greek texts show the pronoun, Rhi.
I think, though, that you'll find many 'feminine' attributes ascribed to God in the OT - the Psalms are a rich source, for example.
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"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Re: Mary
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2015, 10:25:49 PM »
As a Pagan (or neo-Pagan, if you must) I am well aware of what my view of the entire bible story of Mary would result in.

Terminal vilification in the most unpleasant fashion and on an epic scale; all I will say is that my path includes the divine feminine, big time, and Christianity took over from Paganism.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 08:50:15 AM by CMG KCMG GCMG »
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ad_orientem

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Re: Mary
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2015, 11:26:43 PM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:21:14 PM
Why does nobody here ever seem to mention her? How do posters regard her?

Theotokos, that is, Godbearer. Ever-virgin without blemish, that is, in the words of the seventh ecumencal council against the Iconoclasts.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Mary
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2015, 03:18:24 AM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:59:08 PM
It's very difficult not to view as masculine a god who is referred to as 'Father' and 'He/Him'. If God is neither then why not add in 'Her' somewhere?

If Jesus referred to Him as "Father," that will do for me, rather than your take.
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Hope

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Re: Mary
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2015, 08:30:57 AM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:40:06 PM
Anchorman, do you think it would be acceptable, even beneficial, to have another idea of the divine feminine within Christianity?
I'm not sure that Christianity needs a second idea of the 'divine feminine', as you call it.  I realise that we have, elsewhere, been debating the role of the Old Testament in Christian thinking, but we need to remember that the very early church would have had this idea of the 'divine feminine' already in their minds - remember that, for the Jews, of the 144 names of God, only 72 are masculine; the rest are feminine.

I suspect that that duality became lost once the Romans took the religion over, but interestingly, in English at least, it was sort of regained as we only have one gender-marked pronominal set - and that is the feminine set.  In a way, the modern push to make English-language Bible translations 'inclusive' is actually over-egging the femininity of the deity and 'his' followers.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 08:42:11 AM by Hope »
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Hope

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Re: Mary
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2015, 08:32:03 AM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
So when we are made in God's image that doesn't include females?
See my previous post, Rhi.
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Hope

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Re: Mary
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2015, 08:40:58 AM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:59:08 PM
It's very difficult not to view as masculine a god who is referred to as 'Father' and 'He/Him'. If God is neither then why not add in 'Her' somewhere?
Rhi, you are very modern-English-centric.  Why add a 'Her' in when - in English - 'He/Him' necessarily includes 'She/Her'.  I accept that there are times, such as when Paul or one of the other writers of the epistles refers to (human) 'Brothers', an addition of 'and Sisters', makes sense since that is what they would have been meaning, but why give a gender specification to God when the deity transcends gender?  'He' is perfectly correct, grammatically and gender-specifically - in English - as it is officially genderless.

That said, I can see that translations of the Bible into other languages that have more than one gender-specific pronominal set may need to be that much more exact.
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Hope

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Re: Mary
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2015, 08:46:10 AM »
Quote from: CMG KCMG GCMG on August 08, 2015, 10:25:49 PM
As a Pagan (or neo-Pagan, if you must) I am well aware of what my view of the entire bible story of Mary would result in.

Terminal vilification in the most unpleasant fashion and on an epic scale; all I will say is that my path includes the divine feminine, big time and Chritianinty took over from Paganism.
From what I understand of paganism from others, Matt, I suspect that your "view of the entire bible story of Mary" would probably be fairly un-dramatic.
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floo

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Re: Mary
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2015, 08:50:50 AM »
Quote from: Rhiannon on August 08, 2015, 08:21:14 PM
Why does nobody here ever seem to mention her? How do posters regard her?

I think Mary was likely to have been a very young girl, probably lower than the age of consent in the UK today. She found herself pregnant by Joseph, or another human male, before she was wed! I suspect the 'god wot did it' fantasy was put around to cover the fact of the shameful conception of Jesus, as it would have been considered in those days.
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