Author Topic: Mary  (Read 62489 times)

Hope

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Re: Mary
« Reply #300 on: August 14, 2015, 01:23:51 PM »
I agree the Christian Church has changed but many on this forum seem to still be back in the old days of being scared of science. 
jj, the only people I can think of who may have indicated a fear of science are Sass,



and



Sass, and possibly













Sass.












Oh, have I mentioned Sass?



One name, doesn't really seem to match your assertion that "many on this forum seem to still be back in the old days of being scared of science".
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Re: Mary
« Reply #301 on: August 14, 2015, 01:26:13 PM »
Yes, they mostly remained Christians, guess why!  They valued their liberty and life!
Do you have any evidence for this assumption?  Remember that, for many, it was the science bit that put rthem in most jeopardy.

Quote
As a historian, Hope, I think you  must have studied with your magic Christian glasses on.
No, just studied the link between history and science with an open mind.
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Re: Mary
« Reply #302 on: August 14, 2015, 01:27:10 PM »
Do they fail in the way you describe?

Yes.

ippy
OK, then explain how they fail?  Try not to use stats that don't actually say what you want them to.
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ippy

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Re: Mary
« Reply #303 on: August 14, 2015, 01:29:29 PM »
Do they fail in the way you describe?

Yes.

ippy
OK, then explain how they fail?  Try not to use stats that don't actually say what you want them to.

Easy, an exponential falling of numbers, year on year.

ippy

jjohnjil

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Re: Mary
« Reply #304 on: August 14, 2015, 01:37:07 PM »
Yes, they mostly remained Christians, guess why!  They valued their liberty and life!
Do you have any evidence for this assumption?  Remember that, for many, it was the science bit that put rthem in most jeopardy.

Quote
As a historian, Hope, I think you  must have studied with your magic Christian glasses on.
No, just studied the link between history and science with an open mind.

"Remember that, for many, it was the science bit that put them in most jeopardy."

Of course it did, that's what I'm saying!  The Church threatened anyone who dared to question Goddidit!

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Mary
« Reply #305 on: August 14, 2015, 04:45:02 PM »

Oh, and, DU;
After the tenth century BC, there's surprisingly loads of tie ins with events in scripture; tie-ins recorded in Egypt, Assyeria, Babylon and Persia.
Sonetimes names are mentioned, at other times places, battles, etc.
Don't forget that, in the scheme of things, historically speaking, Israel and Judah were minor players at best in the history of late bronze age and early Iron age Middle Eastern history. That substantive evidence exists at all is interesting in itself.
The other difficulty is that Israel had an annoying habit of giving Hebrew language names to people and places beyond her borders...and untsngling them is a headache at times.
At least they shared this bad habit of theirs with the Greeks, though, because everyone holds the Hellenistic civilisation up as a paragon (which it wasn't), most of the Greek place and personal names stuck.

Of course - I don't deny this kind of corroborative evidence, though one would really expect more from the glorious descriptions of Solomon's Temple etc in the OT, even if  Israel and Judah were 'minor players' on the scene. I understand that the supposed site of Solomon's Temple has been "otherwise occupied" for a very long time. It would be interesting to see what might be revealed if ever the site once again became accessible. However, some sites which might have proved of distinctive historical interest have turned out to be absolute duds - such as Jericho. No evidence of "tumbled walls" as far as I know.
Which brings me back to my original point about the Sennacherib Prism. There may indeed be many historical and archaeological artifacts around which confirm the events in the OT in a general way, but nothing that would suggest the visitation of angels or the 'Hand of God'.
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Anchorman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #306 on: August 14, 2015, 06:52:53 PM »
Actually, now you come to mention it, DU, the Solomonic Temple as described in Scripture bears a very striking resemblence to Temples in Egypt (Karnak, Luxor, Abydos and Tanis, though on a much smaller scale.
All Egyptian temples were roofed (except those at Amarna), and every wall, pillar and ceiling was decorated in a riot of colour, with wooden roofing, wooden doors gilded and bronzed, gilded statuary, etc.
The main differences with the Solomonic Temple were the obvious lack of a statue in the 'holy of holies', substitution of churubim and seraphim images for Egyptian deities, and the greater use of wood - a precious commodity in the Nile Valley.
Compare the floor plan of Solomon's Temple and that of the Temple of Amun-Ra in Tanis, and the two are virtually identical (though Solomon's Temple is about a third the size).


Curios that the Tanis Temple was originally constructed at Pi-Ramesse in the Delta (remember Exodus and 'Ramses'?)
before Psusennes I removed the entire city to Tanis after the branch of the Nile on which Pi-Ramesse was situated silted up.
The Temple was rebuilt block by block as it was originslly constructed.
This argues that at least some Hebrews were employed either in designing or constructing the Temple at Pi-Ramesse...strange indeed, as it was normally very highly unlikely that any non-Egyptian (or even Egyptian 'commoner', come to that) would ever be allowed into an Egyptian Temple at any time.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 06:58:38 PM by Anchorman »
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Hope

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Re: Mary
« Reply #307 on: August 14, 2015, 09:44:18 PM »
Of course it did, that's what I'm saying!  The Church threatened anyone who dared to question Goddidit!
Do you find anything within Jesus' teaching that suggests that investigation and exploration of any sort ought to be outlawed?

It is very easy to blame the Church - a human institution - but less so Jesus and his teachings which are, of course, the foundation of the faith.
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jjohnjil

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Re: Mary
« Reply #308 on: August 15, 2015, 09:43:11 AM »
Of course it did, that's what I'm saying!  The Church threatened anyone who dared to question Goddidit!
Do you find anything within Jesus' teaching that suggests that investigation and exploration of any sort ought to be outlawed?

It is very easy to blame the Church - a human institution - but less so Jesus and his teachings which are, of course, the foundation of the faith.

No, I do not  find anything in JCs alleged teachings to suggest he was against it, although there is nothing there to suggest he encouraged it, but that isn't the point.  As a teacher. he sounds as if he was against the established religion and it's  way of thinking - as I am today!  He could see it for what it was and still is, a power base in which its leaders did okay while its followers did as they were told - mainly by the carrot and stick method.

While the leaders lived a life of luxury in palaces (such as Westminster Palace today) the peasants lived in hovels, so anyone who looked for change were held down.  This meant that any would-be scientists who suggested there were other explanations than simply Goddidit were a threat to their power and influence. 

If Christians simply held JC's views and standards, criticising  the Pope, bishops, Archbishops etc and stopped telling us he was something more than the Arthur Scargil of the 1stC, I would have no qualms with you.

Anchorman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #309 on: August 15, 2015, 10:51:44 AM »
Of course it did, that's what I'm saying!  The Church threatened anyone who dared to question Goddidit!
Do you find anything within Jesus' teaching that suggests that investigation and exploration of any sort ought to be outlawed?

It is very easy to blame the Church - a human institution - but less so Jesus and his teachings which are, of course, the foundation of the faith.

No, I do not  find anything in JCs alleged teachings to suggest he was against it, although there is nothing there to suggest he encouraged it, but that isn't the point.  As a teacher. he sounds as if he was against the established religion and it's  way of thinking - as I am today!  He could see it for what it was and still is, a power base in which its leaders did okay while its followers did as they were told - mainly by the carrot and stick method.

While the leaders lived a life of luxury in palaces (such as Westminster Palace today) the peasants lived in hovels, so anyone who looked for change were held down.  This meant that any would-be scientists who suggested there were other explanations than simply Goddidit were a threat to their power and influence. 

If Christians simply held JC's views and standards, criticising  the Pope, bishops, Archbishops etc and stopped telling us he was something more than the Arthur Scargil of the 1stC, I would have no qualms with you.



What:
Views such as "I am the Way, the truth and the Life: no mane can come to the Father, but through Me"?
or
"Apart from Ne, you can do nothing."
Or
"I have come that you may have life; life in all its' fulness".
or
"Come to Me, all you who are heavy laden.....take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me, ........and you will find rest for your soul."
Teaching like that, you mean?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

jjohnjil

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Re: Mary
« Reply #310 on: August 15, 2015, 12:09:57 PM »
Of course it did, that's what I'm saying!  The Church threatened anyone who dared to question Goddidit!
Do you find anything within Jesus' teaching that suggests that investigation and exploration of any sort ought to be outlawed?

It is very easy to blame the Church - a human institution - but less so Jesus and his teachings which are, of course, the foundation of the faith.

No, I do not  find anything in JCs alleged teachings to suggest he was against it, although there is nothing there to suggest he encouraged it, but that isn't the point.  As a teacher. he sounds as if he was against the established religion and it's  way of thinking - as I am today!  He could see it for what it was and still is, a power base in which its leaders did okay while its followers did as they were told - mainly by the carrot and stick method.

While the leaders lived a life of luxury in palaces (such as Westminster Palace today) the peasants lived in hovels, so anyone who looked for change were held down.  This meant that any would-be scientists who suggested there were other explanations than simply Goddidit were a threat to their power and influence. 

If Christians simply held JC's views and standards, criticising  the Pope, bishops, Archbishops etc and stopped telling us he was something more than the Arthur Scargil of the 1stC, I would have no qualms with you.



What:
Views such as "I am the Way, the truth and the Life: no mane can come to the Father, but through Me"?
or
"Apart from Ne, you can do nothing."
Or
"I have come that you may have life; life in all its' fulness".
or
"Come to Me, all you who are heavy laden.....take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me, ........and you will find rest for your soul."
Teaching like that, you mean?

Have you ever thought of the possibility that he might have been using the phrase 'Father' as you do when you say the Lord's Prayer, Anchorman?  You don't mean God is your real dad but a father figure that you imagine to be listening to you.

But even if he was telling his followers that he was actually God in human form, couldn't that have been to give his teachings more credence - people in those days thought Gods were those amazing beings who sent comets across the sky and blew up mountains when they were angry, so were pretty gullible to anyone who told them they were God?

When I say his teachings, I mean the basic "Help others and do as you would want to be done by" type messages.

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Re: Mary
« Reply #311 on: August 15, 2015, 01:37:17 PM »
Of course it did, that's what I'm saying!  The Church threatened anyone who dared to question Goddidit!
Do you find anything within Jesus' teaching that suggests that investigation and exploration of any sort ought to be outlawed?

It is very easy to blame the Church - a human institution - but less so Jesus and his teachings which are, of course, the foundation of the faith.

What if the 'teachings' of Jesus weren't reported correctly all those years after his demise, or invented by the gospel writers? There is no verifiable proof that what was written down actually came out of the mouth of Jesus.

Anchorman

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Re: Mary
« Reply #312 on: August 15, 2015, 02:19:35 PM »
Of course it did, that's what I'm saying!  The Church threatened anyone who dared to question Goddidit!
Do you find anything within Jesus' teaching that suggests that investigation and exploration of any sort ought to be outlawed?

It is very easy to blame the Church - a human institution - but less so Jesus and his teachings which are, of course, the foundation of the faith.

No, I do not  find anything in JCs alleged teachings to suggest he was against it, although there is nothing there to suggest he encouraged it, but that isn't the point.  As a teacher. he sounds as if he was against the established religion and it's  way of thinking - as I am today!  He could see it for what it was and still is, a power base in which its leaders did okay while its followers did as they were told - mainly by the carrot and stick method.

While the leaders lived a life of luxury in palaces (such as Westminster Palace today) the peasants lived in hovels, so anyone who looked for change were held down.  This meant that any would-be scientists who suggested there were other explanations than simply Goddidit were a threat to their power and influence. 

If Christians simply held JC's views and standards, criticising  the Pope, bishops, Archbishops etc and stopped telling us he was something more than the Arthur Scargil of the 1stC, I would have no qualms with you.



What:
Views such as "I am the Way, the truth and the Life: no mane can come to the Father, but through Me"?
or
"Apart from Ne, you can do nothing."
Or
"I have come that you may have life; life in all its' fulness".
or
"Come to Me, all you who are heavy laden.....take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me, ........and you will find rest for your soul."
Teaching like that, you mean?

Have you ever thought of the possibility that he might have been using the phrase 'Father' as you do when you say the Lord's Prayer, Anchorman?  You don't mean God is your real dad but a father figure that you imagine to be listening to you.
-
Yes. But there are enough proofs in the synoptic, as well as Johanine, Gospels, that Jesus was self-identifying Himself with God. _

But even if he was telling his followers that he was actually God in human form, couldn't that have been to give his teachings more credence - people in those days thought Gods were those amazing beings who sent comets across the sky and blew up mountains when they were angry, so were pretty gullible to anyone who told them they were God?
-
No. If He was telling His followers that He was (and is) God in human form, He knew exactly what kind of hornets' nest that would provoke amongst those who thought they knew the Torah.
-

When I say his teachings, I mean the basic "Help others and do as you would want to be done by" type messages.


-
Problem there is that one can't separate what Jesus both taught and did - npot even in the Synoptics.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Gonnagle

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Re: Mary
« Reply #313 on: August 15, 2015, 03:22:08 PM »
Dear jj,


Quote
When I say his teachings, I mean the basic "Help others and do as you would want to be done by" type messages.



Second Commandment.

Quote
Matthew 22:36-40 

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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Mary
« Reply #314 on: August 15, 2015, 07:54:18 PM »
Dear jj,


Quote
When I say his teachings, I mean the basic "Help others and do as you would want to be done by" type messages.



Second Commandment.

Quote
Matthew 22:36-40 

Gonnagle.

Jesus said: "You are my friends if you follow my commandment.  It is my commandment that you love one another."  That is sublime
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

ippy

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Re: Mary
« Reply #315 on: August 16, 2015, 03:37:49 PM »
Floo you'll never get through to this lot they are as described by our reverend father, R D the great, they hate him because he has hit the nail on the head they are in fact deluded, the psychologists refer to the religionists particular blend of delusion as cognitive dissonance.

It is very similar to the way smokers justify/make excuses to themselves for continuing with habit in spite of the fact that it's in fact largely suicidal.

OK being a religionist of whatever colour although it's not so suicidal as smoking tobacco it's plainly irrational due to the total lack of evidence for any of the magical, mysterious or supernatural aspects of these overall strange beliefs.

But in spite of the lack of evidence they will still go into making irrational illogical excuses to themselves backed up by the get out of jail free excuses written into their manuals put there to counter any rational case put before the devotees of these manuals.

The irrational excuses for continuing to smoke are so similar to the religionist's rejection of even the lightest of critique, no matter how rational these critiques might be they continue to fly in the face of logic with all sorts of excuses for hanging on to their unsupported beliefs, come what may.

R D certainly said it like it is.

Ippy

Hope

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Re: Mary
« Reply #316 on: August 16, 2015, 03:50:06 PM »
What if the 'teachings' of Jesus weren't reported correctly all those years after his demise, or invented by the gospel writers? There is no verifiable proof that what was written down actually came out of the mouth of Jesus.
That's been tried before, Floo.  It didn't float for very long.
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Hope

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Re: Mary
« Reply #317 on: August 16, 2015, 03:51:53 PM »
Floo you'll never get through to this lot they are as described by our reverend father, R D the great, they hate him because he has hit the nail on the head they are in fact deluded, the psychologists refer to the religionists particular blend of delusion as cognitive dissonance.
Not sure that the term 'cognitive dissonance' has ever been applied to religious belief, ippy.  Would you have a reference from a reputable source - not just from your own writings?
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Re: Mary
« Reply #318 on: August 16, 2015, 04:22:36 PM »
What if the 'teachings' of Jesus weren't reported correctly all those years after his demise, or invented by the gospel writers? There is no verifiable proof that what was written down actually came out of the mouth of Jesus.
That's been tried before, Floo.  It didn't float for very long.

How do I verify that Jesus actually spoke the words of the Sermon on the Mount?
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floo

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Re: Mary
« Reply #319 on: August 16, 2015, 05:02:45 PM »
What if the 'teachings' of Jesus weren't reported correctly all those years after his demise, or invented by the gospel writers? There is no verifiable proof that what was written down actually came out of the mouth of Jesus.
That's been tried before, Floo.  It didn't float for very long.

Meaning?

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Re: Mary
« Reply #320 on: August 16, 2015, 05:09:25 PM »
What if the 'teachings' of Jesus weren't reported correctly all those years after his demise, or invented by the gospel writers? There is no verifiable proof that what was written down actually came out of the mouth of Jesus.
That's been tried before, Floo.  It didn't float for very long.

Meaning?
Meaning Hope thinks he has some watertight evidence that Jesus' words are accurately recorded in the NT.  Unfortunately, he and other have posted it a billion times before so he will not be telling us what it is.
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Re: Mary
« Reply #321 on: August 16, 2015, 05:17:02 PM »
What if the 'teachings' of Jesus weren't reported correctly all those years after his demise, or invented by the gospel writers? There is no verifiable proof that what was written down actually came out of the mouth of Jesus.
That's been tried before, Floo.  It didn't float for very long.

How do I verify that Jesus actually spoke the words of the Sermon on the Mount?

You can't, you can only weigh everything up and decide if the source is worthy of your trust.
"It is finished."

ippy

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Re: Mary
« Reply #322 on: August 16, 2015, 05:49:42 PM »
Floo you'll never get through to this lot they are as described by our reverend father, R D the great, they hate him because he has hit the nail on the head they are in fact deluded, the psychologists refer to the religionists particular blend of delusion as cognitive dissonance.
Not sure that the term 'cognitive dissonance' has ever been applied to religious belief, ippy.  Would you have a reference from a reputable source - not just from your own writings?

Well yes in a way I was talking to a close relative of mine that's a Dr of psychology, about this subject just a couple of weeks ago, it's always interesting having a chat with her because my wife was there with me and it's helpful because she started with child psychology some time ago and went on to get her A levels in the subject so where I fall short both of them are able to change some of the more complicated stuff into everyday English so that even people like me can understand.

Whether you believe me that's up to you, but that's about it, I'm sure there'll be something about cognitive dissonance is on Wikki somewhere.

ippy

     

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Mary
« Reply #323 on: August 16, 2015, 05:53:21 PM »
Floo you'll never get through to this lot they are as described by our reverend father, R D the great, they hate him because he has hit the nail on the head they are in fact deluded, the psychologists refer to the religionists particular blend of delusion as cognitive dissonance.
Not sure that the term 'cognitive dissonance' has ever been applied to religious belief, ippy.  Would you have a reference from a reputable source - not just from your own writings?

Well yes in a way I was talking to a close relative of mine that's a Dr of psychology, about this subject just a couple of weeks ago, it's always interesting having a chat with her because my wife was there with me and it's helpful because she started with child psychology some time ago and went on to get her A levels in the subject so where I fall short both of them are able to change some of the more complicated stuff into everyday English so that even people like me can understand.

Whether you believe me that's up to you, but that's about it, I'm sure there'll be something about cognitive dissonance is on Wikki somewhere.

ippy

     

Keep digging!!
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

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Re: Mary
« Reply #324 on: August 16, 2015, 06:39:06 PM »
Well yes in a way I was talking to a close relative of mine that's a Dr of psychology,...
and we all know that hearsay isn't evidence.

Quote
Whether you believe me that's up to you, but that's about it, I'm sure there'll be something about cognitive dissonance is on Wikki somewhere.
Cognitive dissonance is all about " ... the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

As such, it no more applies to religious belief as it does to atheism.  In fact, it is a pretty common aspect of live as we are all 'confronted with new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values' on a nigh-on daily basis as society, politics, scientific discoveries, etc. move on so quickly.
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