Re-nationalisation of industries - Corbyn

[Outrider]

Tories have a slim parliamentary majority, with a number of slim wins in marginal seats. With only a few other right of Labour seats (UKIP, DUP...?), that makes the rest of the house already 'left of Tory'. Unite that, regaining some of the marginals because those individual votes were split... I think that's more likely than regaining enough of the split-vote to make up the difference without recapturing votes and seats from the like of the SNP and the Greens.

I disagree but I hope that most voters in the leadership election agree with you!

I don't know that I'd vote for a Corbyn Labour any more than Miliband Labour - I'm waiting to see what Fallon does. This is just how I see the things from a Labour perspective.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

And I will ask again, what is Labour for? Anyone got any ideas?

[Shaker]

When has he been right about anything before?

Maybe 1997, 2001 and 2005?

Well, for a start I asked when he had ever been right about anything, not the electorate. But seeing as you mention it: is that your yardstick of rightness - the election of somebody like Blair? It's not mine.

He had a strategy / policies which he thought would get him elected and he was right.

And just look how that panned out.

[Rhiannon]

And I will ask again, what is Labour for? Anyone got any ideas?

Nope. We can rule out socialists, nationalists, liberals and capitalists.

Perhaps it's an employment scheme for former local councillors?

[jakswan]

Tories have a slim parliamentary majority, with a number of slim wins in marginal seats. With only a few other right of Labour seats (UKIP, DUP...?), that makes the rest of the house already 'left of Tory'. Unite that, regaining some of the marginals because those individual votes were split... I think that's more likely than regaining enough of the split-vote to make up the difference without recapturing votes and seats from the like of the SNP and the Greens.

I suggest you have another look at the figures, UKIP got 12.7% of the vote, Greens 3.8% the SNP are not losing any seats soon. The rest of the leftist parties less than 1%.

You also have to take into account the amount of people that would not vote for a more left wing Labour party that did vote Labour this time.

Blair is right, if JC wins then I don't think we'll see a Labour Government for 10 years.

[Nearly Sane]

I find it odd that a party I was a member of for 17 years seems so lost from a purpose. The real problem with Blair is that he turned it into a party that knew how to win but after the first win where much good stuff was done, it ran out of real purpose. It became a party simply trying to win, and in the end that is always been what the Tory party is for.

Yvette Cooper's attack on Jeremy Corbyn that he offers old solutions to old problems highlights for me that it is not actually very clear what she and the rest of Labour see as the new problems.

[Nearly Sane]

Doesn't matter who wins we are not seeing a Labour govt for 10 years unless the Tories split on Europe. The reduction in seats and boundary changes will guarantee that.

[Nearly Sane]

Picking up on the discussion on whether there is enough of a left vote to win , I see that UKIP are being counted here as 'right' . I would suggest that this isn't really that true. A lot of the UKIP voters are people who used to vote Labour. Even if we take Jack Knave, our own resident Kipper, much of what he espouses is what would be regarded as left wing, particularly in regards to business. The whole left right thing is an overdone simplicity.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

There ain't no new problems, the problem is as old as Adam, greed, my greed, world greed, big business greed.

It's not rocket science, the world economy collapsed due to greed, everyone's greed, not just bankers greed.

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

Picking up on the discussion on whether there is enough of a left vote to win , I see that UKIP are being counted here as 'right' . I would suggest that this isn't really that true. A lot of the UKIP voters are people who used to vote Labour. Even if we take Jack Knave, our own resident Kipper, much of what he espouses is what would be regarded as left wing, particularly in regards to business. The whole left right thing is an overdone simplicity.

It is, UKIP are pretty much between Labour and Tory economically, whilst Lib Dems are left of both and Greens still further left.

UKIP and Tory are fairly authoritarian, though - typically considered right-wing as they've often gone hand in hand - with Labour fairly central on that score and the Greens and Lib Dems fairly libertarian.

politicalcompass.org tracks that sort of thing quite well.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Yep, gonzo,I pretty much agree with that. We delight in thinking that all of this is new, but there is as ever nothing new under the sun.

[Nearly Sane]

It would be better on some ways to represent political views in three dimensions as a sphere. UKIP are being moved currently to a more left wing economic view and perhaps to a more libertarianism, but I would suggest that they are also in relation to business moving left of Labour., or to phrase it another way here, there and everywhere.

[Nearly Sane]

As for UKIP votees, my guess is that about the same number of them would support nationalisation as Labour voters

[Hope]

UKIP and Tory are fairly authoritarian, though - typically considered right-wing as they've often gone hand in hand - with Labour fairly central on that score and the Greens and Lib Dems fairly libertarian.

politicalcompass.org tracks that sort of thing quite well.

O.

O, I'd put Labour firmly in the authoritarian segment, since they want the state to oversee most things.  Tory would - with their free enterprise, free market approach - would seem to be less authoritarian.  UKIP - I'm not sure.  Farage seems to me to be very much a free-marketeer yet other things he says seem to put him firmly into the authoritarian group.

[Outrider]

O, I'd put Labour firmly in the authoritarian segment, since they want the state to oversee most things.  Tory would - with their free enterprise, free market approach - would seem to be less authoritarian.  UKIP - I'm not sure.  Farage seems to me to be very much a free-marketeer yet other things he says seem to put him firmly into the authoritarian group.

It's not about market control - that's the conventional right/left economic measurement - it's about social freedom: freedom from state security monitoring, freedom from religion in schooling, equal marriage rights, access to legal aid, clear delineation in the law between the judiciary and parliament, and between upper and lower houses, democratic election of representatives, universal suffrage...

O.

[L.A.]

Doesn't matter who wins we are not seeing a Labour govt for 10 years unless the Tories split on Europe. The reduction in seats and boundary changes will guarantee that.

Potentially it could be worse than that. The only reason Labour became electable again after their last debacle was because the much hated Blair managed to 'trick' them into putting socialism on the back-burner and becoming the more pragmatic New Labour.

I suspect that the Hard Left won't fall for that again, so they might be in for a very long period in the wilderness.

[Udayana]

What is the problem exactly?

People in a party discuss between themselves what their policies are and elect leaders. At election time these policies and leaders are put to the nation. If the electorate is persuaded that the set of policies are what they want they will vote the party in to power.

What use is getting into power on a mandate that doesn't include the policies that you joined the party to support?

[L.A.]

What is the problem exactly?

Loath him or hate him, you've got to give Blair credit for one thing - he made Labour electable.

The Corbynites are Hell-bent on achieving the opposite.

[Nearly Sane]

What is the problem exactly?

Loath him or hate him, you've got to give Blair credit for one thing - he made Labour electable.

The Corbynites are Hell-bent on achieving the opposite.

But Blair's approach may in the long run be responsible for the problem that now exists. Having triangulated, the Tories responded by triangulating back. Labour now has no real point.

[jakswan]

It is, UKIP are pretty much between Labour and Tory economically, whilst Lib Dems are left of both and Greens still further left.

UKIP and Tory are fairly authoritarian, though - typically considered right-wing as they've often gone hand in hand - with Labour fairly central on that score and the Greens and Lib Dems fairly libertarian.

politicalcompass.org tracks that sort of thing quite well.

Doesn't confirm what you have written.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2015

[L.A.]

What is the problem exactly?

Loath him or hate him, you've got to give Blair credit for one thing - he made Labour electable.

The Corbynites are Hell-bent on achieving the opposite.

But Blair's approach may in the long run be responsible for the problem that now exists. Having triangulated, the Tories responded by triangulating back. Labour now has no real point.

I have no wish to play-down Blair's mistakes but his over-all approach was really the only one that can work. In a democracy you can't force Socialism down peoples throats.

[wigginhall]

What is the problem exactly?

Loath him or hate him, you've got to give Blair credit for one thing - he made Labour electable.

The Corbynites are Hell-bent on achieving the opposite.

But Blair's approach may in the long run be responsible for the problem that now exists. Having triangulated, the Tories responded by triangulating back. Labour now has no real point.

Yes, I think some Labour members are seeing this rather starkly.   Blair turned Labour into Tory-lite, which is fine if you like Tory policies.   

But a separate Nu Labour Party - I can't see the point.   Burnham, Cooper and so on are fine if you want someone who will not oppose benefit cuts and so on. 

Blair is now writing hysterical articles in the Guardian, as he sees his 'legacy' slipping away.   Of course, another legacy is Iraq - hmm, plenty of neo-liberalism going on there, Tone. 

Every article like this is another nail in  the Blairite coffin, I think, so they are all getting their panties in a right knot - sit back and enjoy, I think. 

[L.A.]

Every article like this is another nail in  the Blairite coffin, I think, so they are all getting their panties in a right knot - sit back and enjoy, I think.

Unfortunately those celebrations are likely to be short-lived because Labour has no other viable option.

[wigginhall]

Well, as NS has said several times, there is no point to Labour.   I suppose some people want the illusion of opposing the Tories, but it is pretty flimsy now.   

[L.A.]

Then it's R.I.P. Labour