Re-nationalisation of industries - Corbyn

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

Could be a title for another thread but I find Cooper criticising Corbyn over the question, does he want to be Prime Minister.

Who would not hesitate when asked that question.

Gonnagle.

[wigginhall]

I reckon Corbyn is Labour's only hope in Scotland.  If they elect another right-wing Blairite, Scotland is gone for ever.   

I see that the Broon is delivering a speech today, criticizing Corbyn.  Presumably, it will be another booming speech such as the one which saved Scotland for Labour during the referendum debate.   Oh hang on, I think I got that exactly wrong. 

[BashfulAnthony]

I'm no biased cheerleader for Christianity and I don't give a flying fig if Hitler was a Christian or not. But aside from playing the Christian card when it suited him he really doesn't seem to have been one at all. Can we put that one to bed now?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Depends what you mean put it to bed.
He was a Christian of sorts and had links with Catholicism.

That's all there is to it really.

I understand why Christians want to chuck him out of the club, but that's not up to them.

You apparently have no grasp of history or appreciation of what Hitler was about.  I pointed out a fact to you that Hitler's moving motivation was to destroy the Jews, who are "God's Chosen People," according to the Bible," which I note you conveniently ignored.  Perhaps you would like to address it now, and put some meat on your belief that Hitler was a Christian.  Can you pass the test?

[BeRational]

I'm no biased cheerleader for Christianity and I don't give a flying fig if Hitler was a Christian or not. But aside from playing the Christian card when it suited him he really doesn't seem to have been one at all. Can we put that one to bed now?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Depends what you mean put it to bed.
He was a Christian of sorts and had links with Catholicism.

That's all there is to it really.

I understand why Christians want to chuck him out of the club, but that's not up to them.

You apparently have no grasp of history or appreciation of what Hitler was about.  I pointed out a fact to you that Hitler's moving motivation was to destroy the Jews, who are "God's Chosen People," according to the Bible," which I note you conveniently ignored.  Perhaps you would like to address it now, and put some meat on your belief that Hitler was a Christian.  Can you pass the test?

Yes easily.

He declared himself one.

Who are you to judge?

Your God killed everyone bar some he liked (and others that also just happened to have boats).

So your God is also guilt of culling his chosen people.

With love of course!

http://tinyurl.com/pprj23c

Edited to replace long URL.

[2Corrie]

Jeremy Corbyn has apparently called for renationalisation of certain areas of industries - the old Clause 4.

Do you agree?  If so, which areas would you like to see re-nationalised?

Yes, the 1970s were great, let's head on back there!

[Hope]

Depends what you mean put it to bed.
He was a Christian of sorts and had links with Catholicism.

You haven't managed to answer the question that Rhi has asked you, so perhaps if we break it down into manageable bites, you'll find it easier to answer.

1) What do you mean by "He was a Christian of sorts"
2) What do you mean by "and had links with Catholicism"

3) What's "all there is to it really"?

I understand why Christians want to chuck him out of the club, but that's not up to them.

Is it up to you to decide who is a Christian, then?  Surely that's God's prerogative?

[Outrider]

There have been a number of thread about this absurd notion that Hitler was Christian, and most sensible people are well aware that hitler lied about everything to achieve his ends.  Anyone who equates Hitler, with his mass murder, torture, lying, brutality and total lack of morality, with Jesus and His teaching on love and forgiveness, is barking.

Hitler was, without a shadow of a doubt, barking. However, you'll recall that I fail to see how anyone can accept the Big Boy's Book of Jewish Fairy Tales as a true story can claim to be playing with a full bag of marbles...

You having a different understanding of the purported words and deeds of Jesus is irrelevant: if his religion inspired his actions, and if the religious sentiment of the German people that followed him motivated theirs, then it was a Christian act, given that they were Christians.

You might not like what they did for Jesus, but you aren't the arbiter of what's 'true' Christianity - until and unless you can explain why your version is definitively right. You can believe as much as you like, but they can believe just as strongly.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There have been a number of thread about this absurd notion that Hitler was Christian, and most sensible people are well aware that hitler lied about everything to achieve his ends.  Anyone who equates Hitler, with his mass murder, torture, lying, brutality and total lack of morality, with Jesus and His teaching on love and forgiveness, is barking.

Hitler was, without a shadow of a doubt, barking. However, you'll recall that I fail to see how anyone can accept the Big Boy's Book of Jewish Fairy Tales as a true story can claim to be playing with a full bag of marbles...

You having a different understanding of the purported words and deeds of Jesus is irrelevant: if his religion inspired his actions, and if the religious sentiment of the German people that followed him motivated theirs, then it was a Christian act, given that they were Christians.

You might not like what they did for Jesus, but you aren't the arbiter of what's 'true' Christianity - until and unless you can explain why your version is definitively right. You can believe as much as you like, but they can believe just as strongly.

O.

And those who thought it was Christian to fight him?, bearing in mind antitheists were allied to him initially?

[jeremyp]

1) What do you mean by "He was a Christian of sorts"
2) What do you mean by "and had links with Catholicism"

He was born into a Catholic family and was probably Christian in the same sense that most Europeans were i.e. more or less by default. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if his "relationship with God" changed significantly over the years such that, by the time of the war you wouldn't describe him as a Christian of any stripe. 

These discussions amuse me because it seems it never occurs to anybody on either side that Hitler's religious beliefs could ever have changed over his life time.

[Outrider]

There have been a number of thread about this absurd notion that Hitler was Christian, and most sensible people are well aware that hitler lied about everything to achieve his ends.  Anyone who equates Hitler, with his mass murder, torture, lying, brutality and total lack of morality, with Jesus and His teaching on love and forgiveness, is barking.

Hitler was, without a shadow of a doubt, barking. However, you'll recall that I fail to see how anyone can accept the Big Boy's Book of Jewish Fairy Tales as a true story can claim to be playing with a full bag of marbles...

You having a different understanding of the purported words and deeds of Jesus is irrelevant: if his religion inspired his actions, and if the religious sentiment of the German people that followed him motivated theirs, then it was a Christian act, given that they were Christians.

You might not like what they did for Jesus, but you aren't the arbiter of what's 'true' Christianity - until and unless you can explain why your version is definitively right. You can believe as much as you like, but they can believe just as strongly.

O.

And those who thought it was Christian to fight him?, bearing in mind antitheists were allied to him initially?

What about them? If they were claiming motivation from their interpretation of Christianity then, yes, I'd say they were Christian too.

By antitheists I'm presuming you mean the Russians who were allied to him for a while, then turned on him, rather than the Catholic Italians who were allied to him for a while, or the Catholic Church which didn't see fit to excommunicate him...?

O.

[Hope]

... if his religion inspired his actions, ...

In view of his stated aim that he wanted to destroy not just the Catholic Church but the church as a whole (an aim that I believe was stated in private even before he became Chancellor) does it seem possible that whatever his religion was, it wasn't Christanity?

...and if the religious sentiment of the German people that followed him motivated theirs, then it was a Christian act, given that they were Christians.

One needs to remember that the majority of the German people were desperate for an economy that would allow them to live anything other than a hand-to-mouth life.  When Hitler was first elected, it was on the basis of his improving the economy to allow this happen.  By the time his real aims became public, the German people had been sucked into a cycle that would have been very difficult to escape from.  So, their Christian 'sentiment' would have been to provide all with a better quality of life. Is there anything wrong with that?  The fact that the outworking of that sentiment became corrupted by Hitler and his henchman, doesn't necessarily mean that others agreed or continued to agree with that corruption.

Hindsight is a truly valuable gift   

[Gonnagle]

Dear Thread,

It was Bashers wot didit.

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

... if his religion inspired his actions, ...

In view of his stated aim that he wanted to destroy not just the Catholic Church but the church as a whole (an aim that I believe was stated in private even before he became Chancellor) does it seem possible that whatever his religion was, it wasn't Christanity?

It's possible, yes, but then I recall that various Christian figures have, at various times, wanted to eradicate other Christian sects and denominations - that he wanted to eradicate Catholicism and the church structure in Germany doesn't necessarily mean that he wanted to eradicate Christianity, just that he wanted to destroy external control of it. In much the same way that Stalin wanted the church destroyed as much because it was an alternative power structure as because of an ideological dislike of religion (which was also an influence, I don't deny).

One needs to remeber that the majority of the German people were desperate for an economy that would allow them to live anything other than a hand-to-mouth life.  When Hitler was first elected, it was on the basis of his improving the economy to allow this happen.  By the time his real aims became public, the German people had been sucked into a cycle that would have been very difficult to escape from.  So, their Christian 'sentiment' would have been to provide all with a better quality of life. Is there anything wrong with that?  The fact that the outworking of that sentiment became corrupted by Hitler and his henchman, doesn't necessarily mean that others agreed or continued to agree with that corruption.

Hitler didn't man the gas-chambers on his own. He and his cosy inner circle didn't build them, stock them, resupply them... It's a complex set of circumstances, it would be unrealistic to claim to suggest that 'good men would simply have said no' because they good men would almost certainly have just ended up dead, I appreciate.

When Hitler's 'true agenda' came out, though, there were still elections happening, and he was still elected in them...

O.

[Jack Knave]

People have been asking, here, what Labour are for?

Seem to remeber seeing a very interesting article (Spectator? New Statesman?) questioning whether Labour actually works when it 'policies' itself out of existence?  In other words, when it lifts people out of poverty, ensures that everyone has workplace and other representation, enacts business-related policies that ensure far wages, pensions, equality of aspiration, etc., does it then mean that those 'workers' then begin to look beyond them to other parties that they feel can better deliver their 'improved/heightened' aspirations?

This is probably why New Labour appeared as the Tories had, in the short term improved peoples' lives. What New Labour did wrong was to carry on the Neo-Liberal project which allowed the bankers and the elites to send the people back to being poor again - hence Corbyn mania.

[Jack Knave]

Jeremy Corbyn has apparently called for renationalisation of certain areas of industries - the old Clause 4.

Do you agree?  If so, which areas would you like to see re-nationalised?

Yes, the 1970s were great, let's head on back there!

We can't the Unions aren't as strong as they were.

[Hope]

... that he wanted to eradicate Catholicism and the church structure in Germany doesn't necessarily mean that he wanted to eradicate Christianity,

Not quite sure where the quote was from, and where it has been quoted here in the past, but I understand that Hitler is quoted as saying that he wants to do away with the 'Church' and that he defined this as Christianity in toto.  I'll see if I can find the quote.

Found it

The religious views of Adolf Hitler are a matter of interest and debate. Hitler was raised by an increasingly anti-clerical father and devout Catholic mother. Baptized as an infant and confirmed at the age of fifteen, he ceased attending Mass and participating in the sacraments in later life. In adulthood Hitler became disdainful of Christianity, but in the pursuit and maintenance of power was prepared to delay clashes with the churches out of political considerations. Hitler's architect Albert Speer believed he had "no real attachment" to Catholicism, but that he had never formally left the Church. Unlike his comrade Joseph Goebbels, Hitler was not excommunicated prior to his suicide. The biographer John Toland noted Hitler's anticlericalism but considered him still in "good standing" with the Church by 1941, while historians such as Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree that Hitler was anti-Christian - a view evidenced by sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann contained within Hitler's Table Talk. Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity." Many historians have come to the conclusion that Hitler's long-term aim was the eradication of Christianity in Germany, while others maintain that there is insufficient evidence for such a plan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

[wigginhall]

Well, triangulation seemed a brilliant wheeze at first, since then Labour could be Tory-lite, appeal to the middle-class, and yet keep the old Labour vote, in the ex-industrial 'heartlands'.   However, as NS pointed out, Cameron then triangulated back, and also both the Nu Labour voters and the Old Labour voters began to feel that it was a bit blurry and ignored them.   'Between two stools' is quite apt.  Scotland was lost completely, other voters went off to UKIP, and of course, some back to the Tories.   Why vote Tory-lite when you can have the unadulterated Blue Essence?

It is interesting to see the reversal now, although who knows where it will all go.  Ironically, Corbyn is not hard left at all, but moderate Keynesian, but then Keynes is now considered left-wing, so far has politics moved to the right. 

Why have we got a thread on Hitler going on in the middle of this?     

[Jack Knave]

Well, triangulation seemed a brilliant wheeze at first, since then Labour could be Tory-lite, appeal to the middle-class, and yet keep the old Labour vote, in the ex-industrial 'heartlands'.   However, as NS pointed out, Cameron then triangulated back, and also both the Nu Labour voters and the Old Labour voters began to feel that it was a bit blurry and ignored them.   'Between two stools' is quite apt.  Scotland was lost completely, other voters went off to UKIP, and of course, some back to the Tories.   Why vote Tory-lite when you can have the unadulterated Blue Essence?

It is interesting to see the reversal now, although who knows where it will all go.  Ironically, Corbyn is not hard left at all, but moderate Keynesian, but then Keynes is now considered left-wing, so far has politics moved to the right. 

Why have we got a thread on Hitler going on in the middle of this?     

It seems his head pops up into everything, though it beats me how he surfaced here?

[wigginhall]

Somebody will say that Corbyn is a Nazi, I bet.

[wigginhall]

I was chatting with a friend about this, and he said, Labour is broken.   I thought that's correct.   I don't think Corbyn can turn it round, it's like turning a big oil tanker.  The party is too deeply identified with Tory-lite, or a kind of mimicry of the Tories, or more precisely, neo-liberalism. 

However, I doubt if this means that the right-wing will sail serenely on.   After all, it was neo-liberalism which produced the biggest economic crisis for 80 years, and then we've had the Greek fiasco.   Hold on to your hats, put your money somewhere safe, and whatever you do, don't get old or sick.

[Hope]

Why have we got a thread on Hitler going on in the middle of this?     

Have just been looking back a page or two and it seems to hve come out the issue of Corbym and talking to terrorists.  I think that it was BA who made the first mention, but then he and Outrider seem to have got into a series of exchanges - Post #184 onwards (immediately after your reference to talking with the Taliban).

[Jack Knave]

I was chatting with a friend about this, and he said, Labour is broken.   I thought that's correct.   I don't think Corbyn can turn it round, it's like turning a big oil tanker.  The party is too deeply identified with Tory-lite, or a kind of mimicry of the Tories, or more precisely, neo-liberalism. 

However, I doubt if this means that the right-wing will sail serenely on.   After all, it was neo-liberalism which produced the biggest economic crisis for 80 years, and then we've had the Greek fiasco.   Hold on to your hats, put your money somewhere safe, and whatever you do, don't get old or sick.

.....old or sick......bugger!!!

Yeah, Labour are dead for the time being. But as the only trick in town is Neo-Liberalism so are the Tories, and by implication all of us...

[Shaker]

Hold on to your hats, put your money somewhere safe, and whatever you do, don't get old or sick.

That last phrase has just reminded me of a speech made by Neil Kinnock in Bridgend on June 7th 1983 - two days before the 1983 general election - which I've always thought to be one of the finest political speeches of the twentieth century:

If Margaret Thatcher is re-elected as prime minister on Thursday, I warn you. I warn you that you will have pain – when healing and relief depend upon payment. I warn you that you will have ignorance – when talents are untended and wits are wasted, when learning is a privilege and not a right. I warn you that you will have poverty – when pensions slip and benefits are whittled away by a government that won’t pay in an economy that can't pay. I warn you that you will be cold – when fuel charges are used as a tax system that the rich don't notice and the poor can't afford.

I warn you that you must not expect work – when many cannot spend, more will not be able to earn. When they don't earn, they don't spend. When they don't spend, work dies. I warn you not to go into the streets alone after dark or into the streets in large crowds of protest in the light. I warn you that you will be quiet – when the curfew of fear and the gibbet of unemployment make you obedient. I warn you that you will have defence of a sort – with a risk and at a price that passes all understanding. I warn you that you will be home-bound – when fares and transport bills kill leisure and lock you up. I warn you that you will borrow less – when credit, loans, mortgages and easy payments are refused to people on your melting income.

If Margaret Thatcher wins on Thursday, I warn you not to be ordinary. I warn you not to be young. I warn you not to fall ill. I warn you not to get old.

[Udayana]

In retrospect, seems like hysterical scaremongering!

Medical and care services have to be paid for somewhere. The economy has to be organised and manged to generate the appropriate level of funding. But, as people alter their behaviour to adjust to changing circumstances, it is difficult to come up with systems dynamic enough to cope. Politicians don't bother with workable policies and resort to slagging.

Has LA abandoned us here?

[Hope]

Have the Labour Party stated when the result will be announced?  Surely they will want a leader in place before their asnnual conference?