Re-nationalisation of industries - Corbyn

[jakswan]

Sorry, Jaks, since you have no idea which news reports I read and listen to (though mostly those on the BBC and in newspapers like the Independent, Guardian and Times), you can't state whether or not my first statement is factually wrong.  I sort of agree that the phrase 'we are on the wane' could be an opinion, but then I'm simply stating what said experts and reporters say and write.

You made two statements:-

1. We are no longer a big player (in international business and finance) on the international stage.
2. We are on the wane.

(2) is an opinion one I'm inclined to agree with in the context of world influence. (1) is incorrect by any measure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index

With regards to being wrong about Italy.

My fault.

Wow well done!

[jeremyp]

This whole austerity stuff can be traced back to the demise of Britain's manufacturing industries

Apart from a couple of blips, manufacturing has grown steadily since the war. It's a myth that there has been any demise in it.

[wigginhall]

I think some economists argue that Osborne is the radical, in economic terms, and Corbyn's ideas are fairly standard (mixed economy).   This is interesting, well, marginally, as it also predicts that Osborne's methods will probably lead to an economic crisis, as he is trying simultaneously to expand the economy, and shrink it (via cuts).   Or 'expansionary contraction', as I've heard it called.

However, I doubt if there will be rational arguments along these lines, as modern politics is more a kind of cartoon show, yah boo to you, and so on. 

[Hope]

Apart from a couple of blips, manufacturing has grown steadily since the war. It's a myth that there has been any demise in it.

But Jeremy, who own and therefore benefit most from that manufacturing?  British companies and thence the British Government, or foreign companies and thence other nations' exchequers?  For instance, how many British-owned quantity-car manufacturers can you name?  How many rail rolling stock manufacturers in British ownership can you name?  How about British-owned steel manufacturers?

[Jack Knave]

You need to finish your little dissertation. What are you trying to say?

The second paragraph was an exemplar of the point I'd made in the first.

You could say that this attitude you seem to be implying goes back even further to the way our education system was perceived in the early 20th century. Britain was seen as being more 'academic', more of the 'leaders' than the 'workers' - we had had centuries where we had basically sponged of the empire for our lifestyle.

Not really.  Historically, we had led the world until the 1st World War, then America and Germany began to run us close and even overtake us.  The existence of Trades Unions shows that we weren't "seen as being more 'academic', more of the 'leaders' than the 'workers' " even if multiple inventions came out of Britain.  Unfortunately, in part due to the efforts we put into the 2nd World War, we finished that conflict on our economic knees which meant that other nations, besides the US and Germany - like Japan and Korea (and more recently China), began to catch us up.

The 1st WW bit : Why do you think that was that the case? I'm not asking because I don't know, I would like you to follow the events that caused that so I can make my point.

[jeremyp]

But Jeremy, who own and therefore benefit most from that manufacturing? 

Moving the goalposts I see.  I take it you concede that British manufacturing is far from dead.

[jeremyp]

The 1st WW bit : Why do you think that was that the case? I'm not asking because I don't know, I would like you to follow the events that caused that so I can make my point.

In fact, the 1st World War made the USA very rich off the backs of Britain and France. We borrowed loads of money off them and bought lots of stuff off them and that is where our relative decline started. 

It is also, by the way, is the main reason the USA joined in. They were protecting their investment.

[Hope]

Moving the goalposts I see.  I take it you concede that British manufacturing is far from dead.

Not moving the goalposts if you look at my original post #289 which I then clarified in post #291.  I still believe that British manufacturing is at rock bottom.  Manufacturing within Britain, on the other hand, isn't.

[jakswan]

I think some economists argue that Osborne is the radical, in economic terms, and Corbyn's ideas are fairly standard (mixed economy).   This is interesting, well, marginally, as it also predicts that Osborne's methods will probably lead to an economic crisis, as he is trying simultaneously to expand the economy, and shrink it (via cuts).   Or 'expansionary contraction', as I've heard it called.

Labour were predicting crisis in 2010 as I recall, although the main economic policy of Labour and SNP were austerity just spun differently.

I think Corbyn has some very valid points, the concern I have it that he'll go the rich, but because they are able to move and dodge taxes the burden to pay more will fall on the rest of us.

We do need someone to nail the big corps though, Google, Amazon, Starbucks, etc, I suspect the so called Google tax is merely lip service.

However, I doubt if there will be rational arguments along these lines, as modern politics is more a kind of cartoon show, yah boo to you, and so on.

Yes by all sides, I think there is a tendency to demonise opponents rather than come up with strong arguments, 'tree hugging lefties', 'thieving Tory bastards', etc.

I have to say the left are also prone to condescending drivel, aka Gonzo's 'all about compassion' etc.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

First of all I am not a leftie ( I am left handed ) this left wing, right wing, Liberal, moderate talk is so 1950's.

We need to step away from this kind of thinking, if I ask for the railways to be put back in the hands of the public I am not being left wing, I am thinking about the good of the country.

And if you think that there is something wrong with putting compassion into politics, well I think that is your problem.

We have been led down the garden path with New Labour and Tory thinking, it has not worked, it is time to put the great back into Great Britain, not as some kind of world power but a world leader, education, health services, innovation, show the world that Britain is a great place to live, not because you receive a free ride but because you will be treated fairly.

Just as an aside, do you know that nurses work 12 hours a day, how can you give someone the best level of care when you are on your feet for 12 hours, this is a nonsense, victorian.

Gonnagle.

[jakswan]

First of all I am not a leftie ( I am left handed ) this left wing, right wing, Liberal, moderate talk is so 1950's.

We need to step away from this kind of thinking, if I ask for the railways to be put back in the hands of the public I am not being left wing, I am thinking about the good of the country.

And if you think that there is something wrong with putting compassion into politics, well I think that is your problem.

No its your problem because its a load of bollocks. Compassion my arse, sanctimonious drivel more like.

We have been led down the garden path with New Labour and Tory thinking, it has not worked, it is time to put the great back into Great Britain, not as some kind of world power but a world leader, education, health services, innovation, show the world that Britain is a great place to live, not because you receive a free ride but because you will be treated fairly.

Like it was in Victorian times? Since you seem so keen on purely spouting rhetoric can I say rose tinted glasses? Britain was not such a great place to live when it was a world power, my Grandfather had zero opportunities to change his lot he was born poor, lived in a slum and died poor.

I'm not saying its perfect but you seem to think you are the only one who has compassion.

Just as an aside, do you know that nurses work 12 hours a day, how can you give someone the best level of care when you are on your feet for 12 hours, this is a nonsense, victorian.

So what do you propose get on your high horse muttering about compassion to make yourself feel better or propose some sort of constructive solution.

By the way the NHS is devolved so I'd get onto the Tory-light SNP party to sort out Nurses conditions in Scotland. How about putting on a penny to income tax to improve nursing conditions in Scotland? No, is that because your compassion is all very well but if you have to pay for it then its in the dustbin.

[Outrider]

First of all I am not a leftie ( I am left handed ) this left wing, right wing, Liberal, moderate talk is so 1950's.

Well, it's been updated a little since then with the addition of the liberal-authoritarian axis becoming (slowly) more prominent.

We need to step away from this kind of thinking,

Indeed, arguments need to stand on their own merits, not because of which wing someone puts them on.

if I ask for the railways to be put back in the hands of the public I am not being left wing, I am thinking about the good of the country.

Well, you are being left-wing, you're just not advocating because of a pre-conceived left-wing status.

We have been led down the garden path with New Labour and Tory thinking, it has not worked, it is time to put the great back into Great Britain, not as some kind of world power but a world leader, education, health services, innovation, show the world that Britain is a great place to live, not because you receive a free ride but because you will be treated fairly.

Unfortunately, with politics of the modern era, that's exactly what New Labour and the current Tories claim they're doing - that's what everyone claims they're doing.

O.

Just as an aside, do you know that nurses work 12 hours a day, how can you give someone the best level of care when you are on your feet for 12 hours, this is a nonsense, victorian.

Gonnagle.
[/quote]

[Outrider]

No its your problem because its a load of bollocks. Compassion my arse, sanctimonious drivel more like.

What's wrong with a little compassion? Hell, what's wrong with a whole load of compassion rather than a perpetual drive for profit maximisation? This is politics, not business.

Like it was in Victorian times? Since you seem so keen on purely spouting rhetoric can I say rose tinted glasses? Britain was not such a great place to live when it was a world power, my Grandfather had zero opportunities to change his lot he was born poor, lived in a slum and died poor.

And if you're born poor today how much better are the chances? If you're born black and poor, even worse? Muslim and poor? Born abroad... There have always been problems, and although we're in a better place than we were we haven't finished the improvements by a long stretch.

I'm not saying its perfect but you seem to think you are the only one who has compassion.

I don't think he was saying that, I think he was saying that a lot of the political class these days claim it - might even believe it, at some level - but their idea of compassion fails to actually address the realities of being in the situations that need compassion.

So what do you propose get on your high horse muttering about compassion to make yourself feel better or propose some sort of constructive solution.

I'd think the solution to that particular issue was pretty self-evident - why are NHS shifts so long? What is being done about the recruitment policies, the training regimes, the workload intensity?

By the way the NHS is devolved so I'd get onto the Tory-light SNP party to sort out Nurses conditions in Scotland. How about putting on a penny to income tax to improve nursing conditions in Scotland? No, is that because your compassion is all very well but if you have to pay for it then its in the dustbin.

Why are we having to pay for it? We had the money, but we gave it to a banking industry that lived by the sword but failed to die by public subsidy - why aren't they paying back the money they owe?

O.

[jakswan]

What's wrong with a little compassion? Hell, what's wrong with a whole load of compassion rather than a perpetual drive for profit maximisation? This is politics, not business.

Absolutely nothing, its more that Gonzo claims he has compassion and seems to suggest everyone else doesn't.

And if you're born poor today how much better are the chances? If you're born black and poor, even worse? Muslim and poor? Born abroad... There have always been problems, and although we're in a better place than we were we haven't finished the improvements by a long stretch.

Agree but Britain being a world leader is irrelevant we need to have compassion for all.

I'd think the solution to that particular issue was pretty self-evident - why are NHS shifts so long? What is being done about the recruitment policies, the training regimes, the workload intensity?

I don't know since Gonzo has raised the issue I was hoping he would have put more substance into it, perhaps he has merely heard a few sound bites.

Why are we having to pay for it? We had the money, but we gave it to a banking industry that lived by the sword but failed to die by public subsidy - why aren't they paying back the money they owe?

We didn't have the money we had to borrow it, I don't know why they are not paying it back perhaps because they don't have it?

Shall I tell the nurses that its all the banks fault then and they just have to continue to suffer?

[Outrider]

Absolutely nothing, its more that Gonzo claims he has compassion and seems to suggest everyone else doesn't.

That's not how I read it - I read it that he wants to see compassion from the politicians and currently he isn't.

Agree but Britain being a world leader is irrelevant we need to have compassion for all.

Absolutely, and the sort of lack of compassion that turns the NHS debate into 'how many foreign scroungers can our already underfunded services take' is not leading.

Shall I tell the nurses that its all the banks fault then and they just have to continue to suffer?

No, it would have been nice if our electorate had told the people they were electing that we wanted a little less of being nice to the banks' profit-margins and a little more of being nice to each other, but the main political parties and the media that supports them managed to ensure that despite a huge upswell in support for issues-based politics that we remained mired between two economically focussed centre-right parties in the New Labour/Tory split, with the only 'issue' on record being the divisiveness of nationalism.

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

My my! but your an angry man.

First let me clarify, I am British, so spouting shit like, oh its devolved means nothing to me, the NHS for me, as was suggested by some UKIP politicians should be taken out of politics, it is to precious.

And yes, if it means putting up taxes to give a better health service, then yes, our population is living longer and with refugee/migrant influx, we need to invest to improve.

On the subject of nurses ya twat!! higher wages, lower hours, the job done by all front line staff in the NHS is demanding, we need them to perform at their best, not walking about half asleep.

Compassion ya numpty, it means to suffer with, most politicians don't know the price of bread, they need to walk a mile in another mans shoes.

Not sympathy, not empathy, fucking compassion.

Gonnagle.

PS: HAVE A NICE DAY.

[Rhiannon]

What does this 'compassion' mean these days? To far too many it means wearing a ribbon for the latest cause, signing a Facebook petition, acting like a knob on Red Nose Day. We're very good at 'compassion' and our MPs get bombarded by e-postcards and petitions telling him what we want them to be 'compassionate' about.

[jakswan]

My my! but your an angry man.

Not at all just not in the mood to take a lecture from an old fart spouting rhetoric.

First let me clarify, I am British, so spouting shit like, oh its devolved means nothing to me, the NHS for me, as was suggested by some UKIP politicians should be taken out of politics, it is to precious.

The control of the NHS in Scotland is in the hands of the Scottish government, this is reality, what you wish it to be is all very well but my advice is I'd check in the with reality occasionally if I were you.

And yes, if it means putting up taxes to give a better health service, then yes, our population is living longer and with refugee/migrant influx, we need to invest to improve.

Good man a proper coherent policy, well done. Went down like a lead balloon with the Scottish electorate maybe you should aim your compassion lectures at your fellow Scots.

On the subject of nurses ya twat!! higher wages, lower hours, the job done by all front line staff in the NHS is demanding, we need them to perform at their best, not walking about half asleep.

Yet thinks I'm angry, bless him.   I'm not in favour of nurses on low wages and long hours or are you just intent on stating the obvious because you have sod all else to say?

Compassion ya numpty, it means to suffer with, most politicians don't know the price of bread, they need to walk a mile in another mans shoes.

Yes I know what it means I think Outrider had managed to correctly convey where you aiming the words.

Not sympathy, not empathy, fucking compassion.

Yes well done, I think those words are synonymous with each other actually. Oh there I go forgetting my audience, they mean the same thing you fucking useless dick-head. 

PS: HAVE A NICE DAY.

Thanks been great so far, you as well old chum!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

I am no expert on Compassion and I would add I don't practice what I preach, I am as greedy and self centered as the next man.

But I am learning, compassion needs to be a everyday thing, like tying your shoe laces, we need to live it and breathe it.

It needs to be written in to every law we pass, every company large or small needs to have it at the heart of business.


It is not an easy road, how can a company make a profit if it has to pay its staff a decent wage, not easy, but compassion has to be where it starts and ends.

I truly don't have all the answers but we need to start somewhere, and for me the best place to start is politics, every law, every debate affects the people of this country, the politicians have a voice, let it be a compassionate voice.

Gonnagle.

PS:BTW, if you want to really know where this all started for me, this compassionate crusade, try Karen Armstrong, maybe one of her Ted talks.

[Rhiannon]

Jak, empathy and sympathy are actually very different. It's why I think Gonners (although meaning well) is wrong - empathy is much more useful than compassion alone.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

You always bring the best out in me.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Rhiannon,

I am no expert on Compassion and I would add I don't practice what I preach, I am as greedy and self centered as the next man.

But I am learning, compassion needs to be a everyday thing, like tying your shoe laces, we need to live it and breathe it.

It needs to be written in to every law we pass, every company large or small needs to have it at the heart of business.


It is not an easy road, how can a company make a profit if it has to pay its staff a decent wage, not easy, but compassion has to be where it starts and ends.

I truly don't have all the answers but we need to start somewhere, and for me the best place to start is politics, every law, every debate affects the people of this country, the politicians have a voice, let it be a compassionate voice.

Gonnagle.

PS:BTW, if you want to really know where this all started for me, this compassionate crusade, try Karen Armstrong, maybe one of her Ted talks.

Yes, Gonners, I know your inspiration comes from Armstrong. But not everyone wants to engage with her ideas. But without looking at it in-depth 'compassion' is just a sound bite. Telling a director of a small business that (s)he has to be 'compassionate' when (s)he's worried about the bank manager and complying with ever-changing employment law and directives is vague and patronising; what you are actually asking for is fairness.

We actually are very good at 'compassion', we click on our Facebook petitions and buy our campaign t-shirts before heading off to Starbucks. I'm quite sure many of our politicians know how to do compassion, it's a nice feeling to be right-on about 'issues' and they are very good at passing on letters to ministers and turning up at rallies.

What we actually need is fairness born out of empathy.

[jakswan]

compassion needs to be a everyday thing..... every company large or small needs to have it at the heart of business.

How does that work when companies are competing against each other?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

Competing for!! short term profit.

The customer does not come first, the shareholder does, what happens when you forget the customer, your shares fall, short term profit, then the shareholder cry's, why is my dividend small, because your company was only looking to the short term, or in easy to understand terms, pure and simple greed.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

No it isn't, Gonners. Companies need to compete to stay afloat. Most businesses are small, don't have shareholders but provide valuable employment as well as keeping other businesses going (eg the estate agent that uses the local cleaning firm, sign person, EPC guy, mortgage advisor, surveyor, florist, handyman, sandwich bar).

What companies big and small can do is treat employees and customers fairly and adopt an attitude of 'how may I serve?' I believe by asking this of themselves across the board businesses attract 'added value'. Being competitive isn't simply about cost cutting and it certainly isn't only about greed.