Author Topic: Transgender  (Read 7569 times)

Hope

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Transgender
« on: August 13, 2015, 08:20:11 AM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?
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Outrider

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 08:59:48 AM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?

Just for clarity, is the imbalance in the people that feel they are in the wrong gendered body, or is it in the people that undergo some sort of surgery to rectify it?

O.
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ippy

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 10:16:57 AM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?

I'm sure there is a reason why as for most things, but I must confess although I'm aware of this transgender and gay stuff and don't have any objection to people that are this way but that's where my interest stops I don't really want to know any of the details.

I wouldn't think I'm on my own thinking this way.

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Hope

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 01:34:22 PM »
Just for clarity, is the imbalance in the people that feel they are in the wrong gendered body, or is it in the people that undergo some sort of surgery to rectify it?
As I understand it, the figure has been arrived at as a result of a study of studies - some related to operative figures, some according to reported feelings.  Again, I isn't that I found one site that reported this, just a series of sites which made reference to such a study of studies.  I'll see if I can one an example from my browsing history.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2015, 03:21:20 PM »
I think it very interesting. I wonder what it is that people thinks being a 'woman' is - recently I read Kellie Maloney say that the big change for her is how much she spends on her wardrobe. She's certainly immaculately groomed. Of course there are some in feminist circles who say this is yet another case of male entitlement, even wanting to claim bring female for themselves, something I've heard from lesbians who struggle sometimes with transgendered lesbians who get involved in support and activist groups.

But - if people are distressed then they should be free to seek whatever it is that they need to feel happy and whole. In my little conservative market town we now have non-gendered toilets both run by the council and in a couple of cafes and a couple of shops have trans staff, and the acceptance and relaxed attitude around transgender now is a good thing to witness.

Shaker

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2015, 07:44:52 PM »
I can't think what any cons might be. Can you?
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Hope

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2015, 07:59:22 PM »
I can't think what any cons might be. Can you?
Yes, though this is by extrapolation.  I'm not sure whether the numbers are growing in reality or whether this proportion of the population has always felt this way and simply been unable to express in it the way they can do now.  If, however, it is a growing trend, it could create an imbalance within human society, such that instead of women making up about 49.8% of the global population today, they were to make up about 50.5%.  With the understanding that, globally, women have an 5-7 year longer life expectancy than men could it have an impact on the world's economies?

Whilst I'm not sure that the issue has any cons at thios point in time, but one has to think beyond today/this year/this decade - perhaps even this century - with this kind of social change.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2015, 07:35:23 AM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?
Back onto the original post and question.

Yes I've seen this imbalanced described before and it strikes me that there might be two explanations (probably many more) based on developmental biology and societal factors.

On biology, there is an acceptance in embryonic development that the 'default' developmental process it toward female with development of male features being a kind of alternative to the default driven by various hormones etc. So perhaps it is more likely for a person who developed physically male to remain psychotically female, rather than the other way around.

On society - I think it remains easiest and more societally acceptable for a woman to dress and act in a manner more normally associated with men rather than the other way around. So perhaps it is easier for people with female to male transgender tendencies to deal with them without considering them overtly transgender, merely by living in a manner that society accepts as being a one end of the spectrum of what is seen as acceptably 'female' (if you get my drift). For men I think society is much less likely to accept someone as 'a man' while dressing, acting etc is a very 'female' manner. Thus they are more likely to feel the need to consider themselves as more overtly transgender if they are to address the disconnect between physical and psychological gender.

Just some thoughts.

Hope

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 07:43:24 AM »
Yes I've seen this imbalanced described before and it strikes me that there might be two explanations (probably many more) based on developmental biology and societal factors.
Thanks for this post.  Your points certainly parallel my thoughts on the matter.  However, since the survey of surveys seems to include both 'hard' operative stats and softer 'feeling' reports stats, surely female-male tendencies would still be reflected in the overall stats?

By the way, the following sites are where I got the original idea and info for this thread

http://patient.info/health/gender-dysphoria-leaflet
http://tinyurl.com/mevke27
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 07:57:42 AM by Hope »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 08:08:55 AM »
Yes I've seen this imbalanced described before and it strikes me that there might be two explanations (probably many more) based on developmental biology and societal factors.
Thanks for this post.  Your points certainly parallel my thoughts on the matter.  However, since the survey of surveys seems to include both 'hard' operative stats and softer 'feeling' reports stats, surely female-male tendencies would still be reflected in the overall stats?

By the way, the following sites are where I got the original idea and info for this thread

http://patient.info/health/gender-dysphoria-leaflet
http://tinyurl.com/mevke27
Well the 'biological' explanation would still work.

But even on the societal one, if women have a much greater spectrum of what society accepts as being female, they may comfortably live at one end of that spectrum without considering they have softer feeling toward being male, merely female at one end of a broad spectrum. If society sees being male in a much narrower manner a similar person wouldn't be able to be considered males in societal terms and therefore may be more likely to consider themselves as transgender.

Gordon

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 09:27:45 AM »
Moderator:

This thread is being temporarily locked while posts about discussing issues such as this in public are moved to another thread. There are also some posts here that relate to libel that will be moved pending further discussion.

Update: posts from here about the public discussion of sensitive matters have been moved to the Talking Therapies thread on this Board. Following a recent PM sent to the Mods from a member other posts removed from this thread will remain on the Mod Board meantime pending further discussion. 

Will now unlock this thread.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 10:16:33 AM by Gordon »

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 10:15:18 PM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?
Back onto the original post and question.

Yes I've seen this imbalanced described before and it strikes me that there might be two explanations (probably many more) based on developmental biology and societal factors.

On biology, there is an acceptance in embryonic development that the 'default' developmental process it toward female with development of male features being a kind of alternative to the default driven by various hormones etc. So perhaps it is more likely for a person who developed physically male to remain psychotically female, rather than the other way around.

On society - I think it remains easiest and more societally acceptable for a woman to dress and act in a manner more normally associated with men rather than the other way around. So perhaps it is easier for people with female to male transgender tendencies to deal with them without considering them overtly transgender, merely by living in a manner that society accepts as being a one end of the spectrum of what is seen as acceptably 'female' (if you get my drift). For men I think society is much less likely to accept someone as 'a man' while dressing, acting etc is a very 'female' manner. Thus they are more likely to feel the need to consider themselves as more overtly transgender if they are to address the disconnect between physical and psychological gender.

Just some thoughts.

In general terms I agree with you.

Some thoughts:

Not only is the male (at least in mammals) a "modified female", but also, in many measures which are normally distributed, males show greater variability than females. In other animals, sex is strictly an activity concerned with reproduction. In humans, sex has a much more complex role and is expressive and affective. Sexuality is a very complex property for whose appropriate expression in mature individuals a number of influences are probably responsible. It may be that some interactions between inheritance and experience have a greater effect in males than females - hence the greater likelihood of some kind of sexual dysmorphia in males.

A more personal view: when I was a child, it was clear that girls were treated with greater flexibility and latitude than boys. Girls were almost always given preferential treatment over boys, were allowed to be more openly emotional than boys, girls were praised more readily, standards of behaviour for boys were more strict than for girls. (At about the age of seven, I recall the headmistress allowing girls into school buildings to shelter from rain, boys having to stay outside.)

Such treatment at a time when psychosexual development was in progress may have resulted in some learned condition in which being female was a preferred option.

Girls: sugar and spice and all things nice.
Boys: slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails.

I would hope that such distinctions do not apply today - but I don't know ...
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 08:16:15 AM by Harrowby Hall »
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Rhiannon

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2015, 10:30:22 PM »
From a female point of view there is also the attitude that women are domesticated and men aren't, which ends up in effect with females drudging after men. It's getting better but I still see brothers getting waited on by sisters - even my own girls do it, to my horror.

And yes, my son does get told that boys don't cry. Drives me nuts and I have to redress the balance.

Even today you'll find articles in parenting magazines on 'why boys aren't all bad'. Very very odd.

Rhiannon

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2015, 10:39:13 PM »
I wouldn't say that girls get preferable treatment. These days you won't find girls excluded from mud and den building. But what seems like 'preference' is actually saying that females are weaker.

I think girls are also expected to be 'good' and 'easy' and boys 'boisterous' and 'adventurous' - only a year or two ago I read an article saying that boys should have their 'adventurousness' channelled by learning outside whole girls stayed inside. I still don't think we've fully moved on from the idea that men are risk takers and leaders whilst women play safe and follow.

floo

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2015, 12:41:47 PM »
I wouldn't say that girls get preferable treatment. These days you won't find girls excluded from mud and den building. But what seems like 'preference' is actually saying that females are weaker.

I think girls are also expected to be 'good' and 'easy' and boys 'boisterous' and 'adventurous' - only a year or two ago I read an article saying that boys should have their 'adventurousness' channelled by learning outside whole girls stayed inside. I still don't think we've fully moved on from the idea that men are risk takers and leaders whilst women play safe and follow.

I will give my father his due, he had four daughters and we were treated more like lads in some ways. I was permitted to drive a small caterpillar tractor from the age of five, which nowadays would have been a health and safety nightmare. :o It had an exhaust pipe running along the side of it, which was red hot when in use! I was also permitted to drive a motorised truck, which was also quite dangerous, I managed to run myself over with it when I was about ten! :o My father taught us how to drive his large cars from the age of twelve.

We were permitted to use an airgun for target shooting in the large shed, without supervision!

Me being me, I went the extra mile/100 in the mad escapades I got involved in, like kicking a live grenade around like a football. I got the thrashing of my life for that one. Not so much that I might have blown myself up but I might have caused damage to our property! ;D

I still get involved in madcap stunts, my first childhood having gone seamlessly into the second! ::)

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2015, 01:26:05 PM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?

Possibly because it is easier to do?

Rhiannon

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2015, 01:53:44 PM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?

Possibly because it is easier to do?

I think it much easier to live as a 'manly' woman without creating much attention. It might not feel as necessary?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2015, 06:59:18 PM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?

Possibly because it is easier to do?

I think it much easier to live as a 'manly' woman without creating much attention. It might not feel as necessary?
I think that's true and one of the points I was making.

And that starts young too - it's much easier and socially acceptable as a child for a girl to become one of the boys, rather than the other way around. Simply thinking about the pejorative or otherwise connotations of 'tom boy' and 'sissy' which seem to be the main terms used to describe children who act against their gender stereotype.

Owlswing

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2015, 09:41:12 PM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?

The main reason is structural.

It is far, far harder to create an erectable penis from a vagina than to create a working vagina from a penis.
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Hope

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2015, 09:28:32 AM »
It is interesting that everyone seems to concentrating on the physical 'operational' element of this issue.  I understood the material I originally looked at to largely cover both 'operational' and psychological aspects, so that the proportion I quoted is a combination of both.  Its all very well saying that its "easier to live a 'manly' woman" but that is dealing with the 'symptoms', rather than with the underlying psychological issues.
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Sassy

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Re: Transgender
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2015, 02:29:15 PM »
Doing a bit of googling, it appears that there are roughly 3 times as many instances of male to female transgendering than female to male.

Is there any particular reason for this 'imbalance'?
 

I suppose most women have had children before they realise they could change the outcome of what they feel. Or what they are feeling.
I imagine most women want to raise their children and keep them together as a family before taking on anything like a sex change.
Gender reassignment is a big deal.
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