Just to keep things up to date

[ippy]

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/06/new-research--49-percent-have-no-religion-anglican-church-collapse-continues-islam-increases-ten-fold-since-1983

ippy

[Shaker]

Probably better placed in the Religion & Ethics sub-forum, but nevertheless, always nice to know that things are going the right way 

[Hope]

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/06/new-research--49-percent-have-no-religion-anglican-church-collapse-continues-islam-increases-ten-fold-since-1983

ippy

Interesting that it is only ever CofE figures that are used to do the comparison.  The extrapolation made here:

The percentage of non-religious people has increased from 31% in 1983, to 49% in 2014. Conversely, the share belonging to the Church of England has fallen from 40% to 17% over the same time period.

This means that by-far the single largest group of people is the non-religious.

simply doesn't exist.  The comparison is between non-religious and religious, under which the latter are still ahead.

As so many people like to say, stats can quite easily lie, especially when the stats being quoted aren't comparable.

[Hope]

Probably better placed in the Religion & Ethics sub-forum, but nevertheless, always nice to know that things are going the right way 

More like the Religion and Unethical, surely?   

After all, ippy loves to use these statistics that don't say what he wants them to.

[Shaker]

More like the Religion and Unethical, surely?   

After all, ippy loves to use these statistics that don't say what he wants them to.

ippy posted a link - I missed the bit where he expressed an opinion on what he wanted the link and its information to say - where did you see it?

[Shaker]

No, didn't think you'd answer that one either.

[ippy]

More like the Religion and Unethical, surely?   

After all, ippy loves to use these statistics that don't say what he wants them to.

ippy posted a link - I missed the bit where he expressed an opinion on what he wanted the link and its information to say - where did you see it?

Cheers Shaker, I've got used to it he always puts it, maybe not verbatim but, in the same way even if these polls are a few percentage points out I can't remember seeing any kind of upward trend for the religious agencies here in the UK.

Give it a while we start getting world figures even when I specifically state "here in the UK".

ippy 

PS. After all I'm only trying to be helpful. 

[Outrider]

Interesting that it is only ever CofE figures that are used to do the comparison.  The extrapolation made here:

The percentage of non-religious people has increased from 31% in 1983, to 49% in 2014. Conversely, the share belonging to the Church of England has fallen from 40% to 17% over the same time period.

This means that by-far the single largest group of people is the non-religious.

simply doesn't exist.  The comparison is between non-religious and religious, under which the latter are still ahead.

Any port in a storm, eh, Hope Yes, religious still outnumber the non-religious... barely. How long do you think that's going to last? I'm sure there are large portions of the Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan and other communities would object to your co-opting them into your rather desperate statistical war against non-theism.

As so many people like to say, stats can quite easily lie, especially when the stats being quoted aren't comparable.

Except that they are comparable - number of C of E vs other groups: C of E loses. Largest single denomination: non-religious. Decrease in religious portion: 69% to 51%.

Which bit of that is deceptive?

O.

[Shaker]

Any port in a storm, eh, Hope Yes, religious still outnumber the non-religious... barely. How long do you think that's going to last?

Ah, now, I think I can help you there ... 

[SusanDoris]

Nice to have some good news on this day of grey gloom!

[Rhiannon]

I've hung out with many New Agers over the years and they would describe themselves as having no religion, with a handful of exceptions. It's mainstream stuff -check out the magazine racks in Smiths and you'll find Spirit and Destiny, Kindred Spirit, Soul and Spirit, Prediction - the book section will have at least a coup,e of shelves of books on Angels, manifesting and the LoA, past lives, psychic experiences, tarot, astrology etc etc. I don't think it something we need to get fussed about - I've yet to meet an angel 'expert' who expects a seat in the House of Lords.

Quite what it will mean for this country when Islam is the majority organised religion - which it surely will be eventually - is anybody's guess.

[ippy]

I've hung out with many New Agers over the years and they would describe themselves as having no religion, with a handful of exceptions. It's mainstream stuff -check out the magazine racks in Smiths and you'll find Spirit and Destiny, Kindred Spirit, Soul and Spirit, Prediction - the book section will have at least a coup,e of shelves of books on Angels, manifesting and the LoA, past lives, psychic experiences, tarot, astrology etc etc. I don't think it something we need to get fussed about - I've yet to meet an angel 'expert' who expects a seat in the House of Lords.

Quite what it will mean for this country when Islam is the majority organised religion - which it surely will be eventually - is anybody's guess.

One thing's a certainty, if islam does become the majority religion, we'll all have to think very carefully if we continue to post on these types of forum.

ippy

[Outrider]

One thing's a certainty, if islam does become the majority religion, we'll all have to think very carefully if we continue to post on these types of forum.

ippy

Not really. By the time it becomes the majority religion, religion will be the minority. We only have to worry if the current trends change significantly and the possibility of Islam being a significant enough majority to achieve some sort of parliamentary power becomes a reality, and even then we'd have to see a dramatic shift in the character of Islam in the UK.

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

One thing's a certainty, if islam does become the majority religion, we'll all have to think very carefully if we continue to post on these types of forum.

ippy

Not really. By the time it becomes the majority religion, religion will be the minority. We only have to worry if the current trends change significantly and the possibility of Islam being a significant enough majority to achieve some sort of parliamentary power becomes a reality, and even then we'd have to see a dramatic shift in the character of Islam in the UK.

O.

The truly religious will always be in a minority....That has always been the case.
But we know people will do anything for a job so Nominal adherence and practice could push the total number of ''religious'' well above a minority.

I think you've been deluded into thinking apatheism is the same as shrill, brave, New Atheism.

[Hope]

More like the Religion and Unethical, surely?   

After all, ippy loves to use these statistics that don't say what he wants them to.

ippy posted a link - I missed the bit where he expressed an opinion on what he wanted the link and its information to say - where did you see it?

Its in the thread title and is contextualized by all the other threads he's started on this topic.  Sorry if you've missed them over the months.

[Hope]

Except that they are comparable - number of C of E vs other groups: C of E loses.

But why the CofE?  why not Christian?  After all, the comment later is that Britain is no longer a 'Christian' country, not an Anglican or CofE country. 

Largest single denomination: non-religious.

Which bit of that is deceptive?

Just that; non-religious isn't a denomination.  It might be a classification, but that is different to a denomination.

[Rhiannon]

One thing's a certainty, if islam does become the majority religion, we'll all have to think very carefully if we continue to post on these types of forum.

ippy

Not really. By the time it becomes the majority religion, religion will be the minority. We only have to worry if the current trends change significantly and the possibility of Islam being a significant enough majority to achieve some sort of parliamentary power becomes a reality, and even then we'd have to see a dramatic shift in the character of Islam in the UK.

O.

Yes, this is what I think most likely - non belief and 'spiritual but not religious' will outweigh the religious. And I think increasingly we will see more people for whom Islam is a culture rather than a religion in the same way as many now an identify as coming from a background that is culturally Christian rather than religious.

[Rhiannon]

Except that they are comparable - number of C of E vs other groups: C of E loses.

But why the CofE?  why not Christian?  After all, the comment later is that Britain is no longer a 'Christian' country, not an Anglican or CofE country. 

Largest single denomination: non-religious.

Which bit of that is deceptive?

Just that; non-religious isn't a denomination.  It might be a classification, but that is different to a denomination.

Because the CofE is the established church. And the established church is dying.

[Hope]

Because the CofE is the established church. And the established church is dying.

No, the CofE is the established denomination.  Christianity is the established 'church'.  Again, I accept that there is a diminishing proportion of those who call themselves 'Christians' compared to say 40 years ago, but perhaps this is reflecting more the loss of the cultural Christians that this country has been burdened with for centuries.
 
I know that we have used the term 'established church' for centuries, but I'd have thought that, in these enlightened times, people would check that what they say actually reflects reality 

[Rhiannon]

You'd better tell the CofE then.

https://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/history/detailed-history.aspx

[Hope]

You'd better tell the CofE then.

https://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/history/detailed-history.aspx

The Christian Church taraces its British roots back to the 3rd century, as the article says.  The CofE came into being in about the late 15th century.  Obviously, the CofE will trace its roots back to the early days, as do all the denominations.  That doesn't mean that it has ever been the only denomination in England.  Baptists started out in Amsterdam in 1609 and the first English/British Bapatist congegation started in the mid 1610s.  The CofE may have been the dominant denomination for nigh on 500 years, but that is all it was.  Contrary to 'popular belief', the CofE, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostalists, Brethren, etc, share at least as much as they disagree on, and what they agree on tends to be the core stuff.

[ProfessorDavey]

No, the CofE is the established denomination.  Christianity is the established 'church'.  Again, I accept that there is a diminishing proportion of those who call themselves 'Christians' compared to say 40 years ago, but perhaps this is reflecting more the loss of the cultural Christians that this country has been burdened with for centuries.

But levels of activity, often measured as actually participation in religious services is declining at the same (or faster) proportional rate as loss of cultural christians. That's assuming by cultural christians you mean people who say they are christian on a census or in a survey, but aren't active in that religion.

[Rhiannon]

For goodness sake Hope, do you really think I'm so stupid that I think the CofE is or ever has been the only English denomination? But it's not just a 'dominant denomination only' - our head of state is also the Supreme Head of the CofE and we still have the Lords Spiritual. No other domination has the same clout. It is the established church and is currently our official state religion.

[BashfulAnthony]

I've hung out with many New Agers over the years and they would describe themselves as having no religion, with a handful of exceptions. It's mainstream stuff -check out the magazine racks in Smiths and you'll find Spirit and Destiny, Kindred Spirit, Soul and Spirit, Prediction - the book section will have at least a coup,e of shelves of books on Angels, manifesting and the LoA, past lives, psychic experiences, tarot, astrology etc etc. I don't think it something we need to get fussed about - I've yet to meet an angel 'expert' who expects a seat in the House of Lords.

Quite what it will mean for this country when Islam is the majority organised religion - which it surely will be eventually - is anybody's guess.

One thing's a certainty, if islam does become the majority religion, we'll all have to think very carefully if we continue to post on these types of forum.

ippy

Not all of us; just people like you.  Maybe you'd better go now, in case they look back at past history!

[OH MY WORLD!]

The MYTH of the SECULAR part one

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-1-1.3135538

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-1-1.3135621?autoplay=true