Author Topic: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting  (Read 15915 times)

L.A.

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2015, 07:49:21 AM »
The one obvious 'missing' factor was the phrase first offence - if the woman was as blameless as the article suggested it is inconceivable that they wouldn't have used it, which suggests to me that she was a regular offender.
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Anchorman

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2015, 07:58:53 AM »
You take the story at face value Anchorman ? Yes it seems a harsh sentence but is that story the whole truth? I put money on there being a hell of a lot more to it.

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Yes, sadly I do indeed take the story at face value, LA; there are too many people in my area who are under similar pressure. The days of people coming from door to door asking for food (and not just a cup of augar) to tide their kids over until the next benefit cheque or payment comes in, and until their case for being 'sanctioned' is heard, - those tales are not apocryphal - they happen in my village.
A case in point is a young mother who was sanctioned because she was fifteen minutes late for her appointment at a jobcentre springs to mind.
She admits it (and I know her).
Of course, the jobcentre were not allowed to accept her excuse that the bus broke down halfway between one town and t'other: a fact confirmed by Stagecoach.
So much of her incom is suspended pending appeal.
She is guaranteed to win that appeal; but, meantime, how do you support two children and yourself on little more than it takes to feed a dog, and the nearest food bank is four miles away?
I wouldn't condone shoplifting: niether would I condemn it under such circumstances.
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It's true that some people lead chaotic lives and are unable to look after themselves, usually due to mental health/disability or addiction issues, but the defence never raised that. Food prices today are historically low, if you are short of money you might struggle to pay the rent but there is no reason to go hungry. And was this a first offence or was she a regular shoplifter?
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99.9% of disabled people - such as myself - do NOT lead chaotic lives - and our benefits are being frozen , sanctioned and cut.
Thanks for that, LA.
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The fact that the Nationalists are trying to use this story as a political weapon says it all - it's not about compassion - it's about politics!

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No.
It's about dignity.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Hope

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2015, 08:32:01 AM »
The only criminals are the inhuman government imposing these degrading benefit changes.
(That's the same bunch who are still trying to resist publishing the numbers of those who have taken their own lives as a result of the Eton mafia's policies)
Jim, one could equally argue that benefits are, in themselves, degrading.  After all, most INGOs are looking to move people away from an aid-dependency culture and onto where they are given materials and skills to enable them to earn for themselves, at the same time helping them to regain self-confidence and dignity.  Why are we, here in the developed world, still stuck in the dependency culture?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 08:34:47 AM by Hope »
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Hope

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2015, 08:34:29 AM »
No.
It's about dignity.
Is it?  Does encouraging people to rely on other people in this way really help dignity - or are you suggesting that the Scots Nats are trying to suppress people's dignity?   ;)
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jeremyp

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2015, 08:46:33 AM »

It's about dignity.

If she's been reduced to stealing mars bars, dignity went out the window a long time ago.
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Anchorman

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2015, 09:11:07 AM »
The only criminals are the inhuman government imposing these degrading benefit changes.
(That's the same bunch who are still trying to resist publishing the numbers of those who have taken their own lives as a result of the Eton mafia's policies)
Jim, one could equally argue that benefits are, in themselves, degrading.  After all, most INGOs are looking to move people away from an aid-dependency culture and onto where they are given materials and skills to enable them to earn for themselves, at the same time helping them to regain self-confidence and dignity.  Why are we, here in the developed world, still stuck in the dependency culture?


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Of course benefits are degradeing, Hope.
But there are those for whom there is no other option, being unable to earn through disability.
The government assessment process has meant that many such people have been removed from the benefits because those doing the assessing were unqualified to do so...over a third of appeals are successful (incidentally, a nice little earner for the tribunal appointed to conduct them).
Many disabled people, including many with learning disabilities, have been drven to attempt suicide in panic over these assessments...some have, unfortunately, suvcceeded.
Maybe Westminster could end their subsidised bars and restaurants, and use the money to pay for the funerals they have caused?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2015, 09:14:20 AM »
No.
It's about dignity.
Is it?  Does encouraging people to rely on other people in this way really help dignity - or are you suggesting that the Scots Nats are trying to suppress people's dignity?   ;)

Dignity, Hope.
The dignity of being able to feed the kids and pay the electricity bill...without risking ill health or hypothermia in a Scottish winter.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2015, 09:16:01 AM »
Are those of you au fait with shop lifting also ok for this thief to burgle their houses because she is reported to be hungry? I smell a stench of hypocrisy in the air esp in the northern parts of this island. Also how do you know how many tea leaves have walked away with unpaid goods from the same shop? So if the defence for committing a crime, any crime in a court of law is hunger then shall we do away with the crime of shop lifting? There's a lot more to this story then has been reported. Trust the fecking nationalists to jump on the bandwagon...
Were mars bars distributed to people rather than discounted alcohol. Still, one wants an electorate off it's face doesn't one.. fnaar fnaar..toodle pip.

Anchorman

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2015, 09:23:00 AM »
Are those of you au fait with shop lifting also ok for this thief to burgle their houses because she is reported to be hungry? I smell a stench of hypocrisy in the air esp in the northern parts of this island. Also how do you know how many tea leaves have walked away with unpaid goods from the same shop? So if the defence for committing a crime, any crime in a court of law is hunger then shall we do away with the crime of shop lifting? There's a lot more to this story then has been reported. Trust the fecking nationalists to jump on the bandwagon...
Were mars bars distributed to people rather than discounted alcohol. Still, one wants an electorate off it's face doesn't one.. fnaar fnaar..toodle pip.


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Discounted alcohol....we're not talkinhg about the subsidised bars and restaurants in the Palace of Westminster, and the government paid champers bill for the champagne charlie parasites in the HOL, are we?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Hope

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2015, 09:28:49 AM »
Discounted alcohol....we're not talkinhg about the subsidised bars and restaurants in the Palace of Westminster, and the government paid champers bill for the champagne charlie parasites in the HOL, are we?
Is this kind of stuff only available in the Palace of Westminster?  It seems to be avilable in places associated with the Senydd here in Cardiff, and I suspect that the same goes for Holyrood - not to mention just about every local council across the UK, even social club around the country.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2015, 09:33:59 AM »
Is this the cue for an updated version of Les Mis?

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/1326642-stephen-daisley-on-wings-over-scotland-shoplifting-fundraiser/

Presumably the Nationalists are trying to put over the message that Scotland supports criminals Maybe we ought to oblige them and send them all up there.

Except the bloke who actually did successfully crowd fund the fine is a reverend from Bath. The surplus is going to a food bank charity.

If she could pay the fine she'd have ended up in prison. By no stretch of the imagination is that in anybody's interest, including the taxpayer.

Anchorman

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2015, 09:34:32 AM »
Discounted alcohol....we're not talkinhg about the subsidised bars and restaurants in the Palace of Westminster, and the government paid champers bill for the champagne charlie parasites in the HOL, are we?
Is this kind of stuff only available in the Palace of Westminster?  It seems to be avilable in places associated with the Senydd here in Cardiff, and I suspect that the same goes for Holyrood - not to mention just about every local council across the UK, even social club around the country.


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I don't doubt it, Hope - and the practice should cease.
However, Westminster is responsible for these inhuman policies...the policies which have led some to end their lives.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2015, 09:37:48 AM »
Are those of you au fait with shop lifting also ok for this thief to burgle their houses because she is reported to be hungry? I smell a stench of hypocrisy in the air esp in the northern parts of this island. Also how do you know how many tea leaves have walked away with unpaid goods from the same shop? So if the defence for committing a crime, any crime in a court of law is hunger then shall we do away with the crime of shop lifting? There's a lot more to this story then has been reported. Trust the fecking nationalists to jump on the bandwagon...

I would be mightily pissed off to have my private space invaded, but then I'm not a retail premesis. But could I spare a biscuit for someone whose benefits hadn't been paid? Yes I could.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2015, 09:40:58 AM »

Except the bloke who actually did successfully crowd fund the fine is a reverend from Bath. The surplus is going to a food bank charity.

If she could pay the fine she'd have ended up in prison. By no stretch of the imagination is that in anybody's interest, including the taxpayer.

Actually he is not a real rev and is a noted nat blogger - that said, I have seen nothing that says all contributors are nats, or indeed would I assume they were.

Rhiannon

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2015, 09:42:48 AM »
Really? How odd.

Does it matter if every penny's been paid by a nat?

Anchorman

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2015, 09:44:59 AM »

Except the bloke who actually did successfully crowd fund the fine is a reverend from Bath. The surplus is going to a food bank charity.

If she could pay the fine she'd have ended up in prison. By no stretch of the imagination is that in anybody's interest, including the taxpayer.

Actually he is not a real rev and is a noted nat blogger - that said, I have seen nothing that says all contributors are nats, or indeed would I assume they were.


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Wot NS said....but I'd add that 'Wings' is unashamedly nationalist, but has no affiliation to the SNP.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Hope

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2015, 09:47:44 AM »
However, Westminster is responsible for these inhuman policies...the policies which have led some to end their lives.
Are they exclusively responsible?  Is it not more correct to say that we, as a society, are responsible?  Is it, perhaps, a characteristic of developed and once (but no longer) developing society?  Not sure that one can blame 'capitalism' per se as I understand that the suicide rate in Soviet Russia and Maoist China used to be comparably high
Quote
Before the 1917 Revolution, Russia’s suicide rate was one of the lowest in the world. But the country approached the European suicide rate over the years of the Soviet regime. This is terrible but within the past 15 years Russia has become the world’s leader regarding the number of suicides committed here. In 2003, the registered suicide rate made up 39 suicides per 100,000 people. In 2004, Russia fixed the second position after Lithuania. There is no official statistics concerning Russia’s suicide rate over 2005 but experts’ forecasts are not comforting in this respect. The suicide rate in Russia is speedily increasing. - See more at: http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/16-02-2006/76036-0/#sthash.wAFAhudy.dpuf

Whilst this blog on Maoist China doesn't mention 'suicide' it describes conditions that I would expect to encourage it - http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/china/deaths1.html
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Anchorman

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2015, 09:55:24 AM »
Er....yes, Hope.
Westminster IS responsible.
Society didn't impose PIP , or ATOS assessments; Westminster did.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2015, 09:57:39 AM »
Really? How odd.

Does it matter if every penny's been paid by a nat?

What's odd?

I don't think it does matter though there are some talking about bandwagons - given that it was started by a nat blogger, not sure you can jump on your own bandwagon. The only reason I wuldn't assume it to be all nats is that Wings is a very widely read blog in politics in Scotland - there could well be some other contributors.

Hope

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2015, 09:58:14 AM »
... that said, I have seen nothing that says all contributors are nats, or indeed would I assume they were.
'Twould be interesting to know how many non-nats know about Wings and therefore supported this particular crowdfunding campaign.
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jeremyp

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2015, 09:58:48 AM »
Er....yes, Hope.
Westminster IS responsible.
Society didn't impose PIP , or ATOS assessments; Westminster did.

Specifically, the coalition/Conservative government. 
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Rhiannon

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2015, 10:00:21 AM »
Really? How odd.

Does it matter if every penny's been paid by a nat?

What's odd?

I don't think it does matter though there are some talking about bandwagons - given that it was started by a nat blogger, not sure you can jump on your own bandwagon. The only reason I wuldn't assume it to be all nats is that Wings is a very widely read blog in politics in Scotland - there could well be some other contributors.

Because I'm not quite sure why a nat blogger wants to pretend to be a vicar from Bath. But hey, it's not a scene I know anything about so, whatever.

Otherwise I don't think it matters one jot who donated.

Hope

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2015, 10:00:37 AM »
Er....yes, Hope.
Westminster IS responsible.
Society didn't impose PIP , or ATOS assessments; Westminster did.
But society has, over the years moved towards regarding such things as acceptable.  By the way, did you complain about DLA when it was first introduced, with all the restrictions that it had on it?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2015, 10:03:37 AM »
... that said, I have seen nothing that says all contributors are nats, or indeed would I assume they were.
'Twould be interesting to know how many non-nats know about Wings and therefore supported this particular crowdfunding campaign.

In Scottiish political circles, nealry everyone knows about Wings, and that wouldn't give you any indication of who supported it. As Jim notes, he is not affiliated with the SNP at all, and has a lot of followers from other parties who might support independence but are not Nats (capitalization deliberate) - like SSP, RIC and Greens

Nearly Sane

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Re: Crowdfunding fine for shoplifting
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2015, 10:16:24 AM »
Because I'm not quite sure why a nat blogger wants to pretend to be a vicar from Bath. But hey, it's not a scene I know anything about so, whatever.

Otherwise I don't think it matters one jot who donated.

Well he lives in Bath so that is the Bath bit. The Rev is effectively an affectation he has used for some time