Eastern Delight?

[floo]

Indeed. No one, except Christ, is perfect.

The Bible doesn't portray Jesus as perfect!

[Hope]

That's a laugh. Look how many paedophiles are Catholic priests and clergy of other denominations!

And how many are there, Floo?  You seem to have a handle on the numbers, perhaps you could tell us.  Are there any more paedophiles within the leadership of the Christian church than there are outside it?

Regarding the thread topic, I think we need to be careful about generalising about 'Christianity' and sex.  Clearly there were and are Gnostic ways of thinking about the body as a whole, not just the sexual bits.  But that applies to far more cultures than the 'Christian' ones.

'Priestly' celibacy existed long before Christ's day -

The belief that religious figures should be celibate began long before the birth of Christianity. Ancient Druid priests were thought to have been celibate and Aztec temple priests were expected to remain sexually abstinent. Other pre-Christian sects mandated that the people chosen for their sacrificial offerings must be pure, meaning that they had never engaged in sex.

The Bible - both Old and New - make a lot of the concept of marriage, not to mention the relevant parts of the body.

As I understand it, the idea that Catholic priests should be celibate is a relatively late addition to their thinking - circa the 11th century

The first written mandate requiring priests to be chaste came in AD 304. Canon 33 of the Council of Elvira stated that all"bishops, presbyters, and deacons and all other clerics" were to"abstain completely from their wives and not to have children." A short time later, in 325, the Council of Nicea, convened by Constantine, rejected a ban on priests marrying requested by Spanish clerics.

The practice of priestly celibacy began to spread in the Western Church in the early Middle Ages. In the early 11th century Pope Benedict VIII responded to the decline in priestly morality by issuing a rule prohibiting the children of priests from inheriting property. A few decades later Pope Gregory VII issued a decree against clerical marriages.

The Church was a thousand years old before it definitively took a stand in favor of celibacy in the twelfth century at the Second Lateran Council held in 1139, when a rule was approved forbidding priests to marry. In 1563, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/696#sthash.0XyVNagh.dpuf (for both this and my previous quote)

Have to say that I've never found any realistic explanation of these developments - though it has been said that people felt that a priest who is married couldn't give his parishioners full attention - but where that idea comes from is open to debate.  It might have some links with Paul's advice in 1 Corinthians 7 (which is of course the passage that is most commonly quoted in this respect) but I have heard scholars suggest that it was more a reflection of Roman thinking.

[Hope]

Was going to add this onto the end of my previous post, but decided to post it separately.

We need to be very careful about suggesting that the West is more or less prudish than the East.  Both areas have bits of the body that they regard as sensual.  For the West, it's the boobs; for many in the East, it's the ankles and calves.  If you go to India and the subcontinent, you will find women with extremely low-cut sari blouses causing not a stir; but as soon as they so much as show an ankle, let alone a calf or knee, all hell is liable to break out.  OK, this is less so in the cities, but is still very common in the rural areas.

[Hope]

Indeed. No one, except Christ, is perfect.

The Bible doesn't portray Jesus as perfect!

Doesn't it?  I know that you like to quote his cursing the fig tree and his turning over of the tables in the temple as evidence that he isn't, Floo, but when one looks at the contexts of those passages, you see something consistent with being perfect.

[Harrowby Hall]

About your subsequent points....all humans are not the same and we all know that instinctively.  We all  gravitate towards a group that we feel we belong to.   

The UK class system, the US slavery....and many more examples of segregation abound in the world. Nothing new.

Division of labour was another form of classification. UK always had its bakers, smiths, cooks and so on.  Work was related to family and skills were expected to be passed on through families. All this made perfect sense given the absence of modern systems of formal education and universal schooling.

The caste system was only one example of a such hierarchy systems that worked for millennia. In the modern context, casteism had been banned in India for decades and one hardly knows who is of what caste in the workplace.  There is now universal education and work opportunity.

This is all very interesting, Sriram. I suspect you may be wearing your rose-coloured spectacles. I fully understand your desire to show your country in the best light, but to compare the caste system with the British class system and the division of labour is disingenuous.

 I have been reading an academic article in The Psychologist by Professor Paul Ghuman of Aberystwyth University who says that, not only is the caste system still alive and well in the Indian subcontinent but has been exported to places like the United Kingdom where there is a substantial population of people with Indian origins. He points out that Dalit children, in areas where there is a high Hindu concentration may suffer discrimination at school coming from two sources: firstly, from the "native" white children, and secondly from the higher caste children within their own ethnic group.

He states that the caste system is reproducing itself through "endogamy, early socialisation, social networking and, paradoxically, places of worship".

It may be the desire of the government and of the enlightened elite in India to eliminate caste, but it would still appear to be an enormous problem. I think it will be a very time before something which is engrained in the national culture disappears.

It would be something else if the Indian diaspora could bring with them the attitudes to sex and sexuality you described earlier ....


https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-28/july-2015/reaching-out-untouchables#

[Sriram]

HH,

You are telling me what you have read from some book. I am telling you what I see every day in my country. I have worked for 35 years in industry with people of many different castes and classes and have never seen any discrimination what so ever.

Even if some people still do choose to discriminate in the UK...its no different from the racist or anti -muslim or anti-asian stand many people take in the west.

[Harrowby Hall]

Sriram

I have not the slightest doubt of the extremely good intentions of the Indian government and of enlightened people like you. India has a population about 20 times that of the United Kingdom and still has many urgent infrastructural problems to overcome, structural social problems among them.

I did not get this from "some book" but from the member's journal of a learned society of which I am a member. I have provided you with a link, why not read the article first?

[Shaker]

Indeed. No one, except Christ, is perfect.

The Bible doesn't portray Jesus as perfect!

Doesn't it?

No, it doesn't.

I know that you like to quote his cursing the fig tree and his turning over of the tables in the temple as evidence that he isn't, Floo, but when one looks at the contexts of those passages, you see something consistent with being perfect.

What a truly warped idea of perfection you must have to buy into to come out with such guff.

[OH MY WORLD!]

160,000,000 untouchables in India. These people live in constant fear. The Hindu caste system is alive and well in India.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html

[Sriram]

160,000,000 untouchables in India. These people live in constant fear. The Hindu caste system is alive and well in India.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html

Hi Johnny...   That's like saying that there are 39 million blacks in the US who are living in constant fear of being killed because of the Ferguson, Baltimore and Charleston killings!      

Not entirely untrue if you think about it actually. 

(Not to mention the 2.5 million muslims).

[Hope]

HH,

You are telling me what you have read from some book. I am telling you what I see every day in my country. I have worked for 35 years in industry with people of many different castes and classes and have never seen any discrimination what so ever.

Even if some people still do choose to discriminate in the UK...its no different from the racist or anti -muslim or anti-asian stand many people take in the west.

I didn't take many weeks of working in India and Nepal, Sri to see the rampant discrimination.

I would agree that, originally, the caste system might have had something to do with division of labour - but nowadays, it is at least as much about your spiritual status as it is about your labour status. 

[Hope]

Indeed. No one, except Christ, is perfect.

The Bible doesn't portray Jesus as perfect!

Doesn't it?

No, it doesn't.

O, Shaker, examples please.

What a truly warped idea of perfection you must have to buy into to come out with such guff.

OK, what was the clearing of the Temple all about?

[Hope]

Why do you feel  likening it to the class system was disingenuous?

just curious.

Rose, one can move between the class groupings whilst you can't do so within the caste system.  I agree that often a first generation class-system mover may well be looked down on (or even up to) by those they have joined, but it doesn't take more than a generation or two for that to disappear.  Under the caste system you are a Dalit, or a Chettri, a Brahmin or whatever not just for life.  It is for ever.  It is actually built into your family name.  This means that, even if you are a highly successful business entrepeneur, if your name is one associated with a particular position on the caste ladder, you will forever be treated as one of that caste - as will your descendents.

[Hope]

I think there are many reasons why the west regarded women in the east more free with their intentions.

1. The customs were different and was misunderstood as they didn't conform to western values

2. They were foreigners, so we're considered of less importance than westerners.


3. They weren't Christian so we're suspected of being primitive or immoral foreigners.

I'm sure there are more.

If you look back in history you can see the attitude, which wasn't very pleasant.

"If you look back in history", Rose, you will see that Christianity is not an exclusively Western faith.  For instance, Christianity arrived in S. India decades before it arrived in Western Europe (the Mar Thoma Church in Kerala - S.W.India - dates from c. 55 AD; Christianity didn't arrive in Gaul until the early 2nd century, and although there is some evidence to suggest that it arrived in Southern Britain as early as 40AD!!, it is more generally agreed that it didn't really gain a foothold until the mid- to late-2nd century).  Most of your comments above really only relate to the last 3 - 400 years, and especially to Victorian Britian.

[ad_orientem]

Indeed. No one, except Christ, is perfect.

The Bible doesn't portray Jesus as perfect!

No Jesus doesn't describe himself as perfect either, in fact that bit where he says " only God is good" implies he saw himself as imperfect.

On the contrary, he is saying that he is God.

[trippymonkey]

YER WOT ??!?!?!?!?!?
When did Jesus EVER say to ANYONE, YES I AM indeed your God !!??

[ad_orientem]

He never says so explicitly but he does say so implicitly many times.

[Hope]

Not sure that he ever said that he was 'your God' (to quote Nick), but on a number of occasions he used forms of words which, for the Jew, were exclusively associated to God.  That is why the Jewish authorities hauled him in front of Herod and accused him of blasphemy.  They certainly believed that he was claiming divinity.

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

About casteism...well...as expected Johnny, Hope and HH have done the honors. We only need Jakswan and KO to add their bit....I suppose. 

As I have said....caste was a very important system that maintained social stability.  It was there in in some form in all societies around the world till universal schooling systems and professionally managed work places came into vogue. There was nothing wrong with the caste system in earlier centuries. It worked and people were happy in their respective positions. 

Its all about publicity finally. Its about what one wants to see and publicize. Only Hope has even been to India (even though with his Christian missionary view point). The others only google and come up with what they think of India. 

Depends on what you want to see actually.  You can see the wonderful secular and democratic society or the chaotic traffic. You can see the millions who work together or you can see the discrimination by few people. You can see the passive and nonviolent society or random skirmishes between some hindus and muslims.  You can see the wonderful position women enjoy across the country or the rape and horror in some instances. Its up to you.

India has always received negative publicity with regard to all that it had...including Hinduism, marriage, vegetarianism, joint families, role of women, caste...etc.etc.  Indians never did anything right it would seem from what has been written about it in the western press all these centuries! 

But regardless...we are a very proud and happy people and we have weathered many a storm. Nothing is going to stop India and its people any more.  It'll take a few more decades...but we'll get there.   

I never claimed that India is perfect...its not...but its a place that has so many positives that regardless of the negative publicity and its many problems...it still manages to attract and intrigue.

Come sometime for a visit.....all of you.  You'll initially be shocked at its over population, chaos, disorderliness, heat and dust. You may want to run away. But stick around and you might want to make it your home as many westerners have. 

As they say...'you can take a person out of India but you can't take India out of a person'.

Cheers.

Sriram

[Udayana]

Discrimination? The street cleaner with 4 degrees.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-33859315

Despite positive discrimination schemes and so on there are no simple solutions to issues originating in the caste system.

Modi does not seem to be making much of an impact.

On the sexual front there has been a lot of confused activity on pornography. Dowry crime, rape, child sexual exploitation etc are still major issues.

It is a big place with a lot going on, you can feel hope but there is a lot to despair and condemn.

[OH MY WORLD!]

It's not at all the same Sriram. Last time I checked on my cousins to the south, there was a black fella in the oval office, they have had a black secretary of state and the latest Muslim terrorist attacker lived in a home with a swimming pool. Look at their Supreme court justices and you are going to find an African American. Canada has even had a Black Governor General. Your untouchables live in fear and are stuck a society that forces them to survive by doing the most menial jobs. You will never have an untouchable in a position of power. Go and convince the 160,000,000 million untouchables that they are living an eastern delight.

[Udayana]

India has had at least one president from the "dalit" caste, no prime ministers as yet but it's only a matter of time. Modi is from a "low" caste as various prime ministers have been. Dalit politicians have headed state governments.

In some areas "brahmins", often regarded as the "highest" caste, can't get jobs and are reduced to poverty - as education and jobs have been reserved for lower castes. In others, riots have occurred so that groups can be re-classified as lower castes in order to get benefits.  There is nothing as simple about this, unlike the black or white situation in the Americas.

[ippy]

The cast system has helped with gene research, where particular groups have married within their groups.

Each group, (cast),  has certain health issues specific to it's particular group this in turn helps to find where troublesome genes might be located, it can make them stand out and be easier to find.

ippy   

[Shaker]

You will never have an untouchable in a position of power

India has had at least one president from the "dalit" caste

Nice one johnny, let's have another 

[ippy]

YER WOT ??!?!?!?!?!?
When did Jesus EVER say to ANYONE, YES I AM indeed your God !!??

It's such a long time ago they probably hadn't heard of delusional behaviour in those days, so it looks like they believed the poor sod.

ippy