Author Topic: Speaking in 'tongues'  (Read 193122 times)

jakswan

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #225 on: September 07, 2015, 02:22:44 PM »
Well I know Christians that torture their children so ....
Evidence, please, Jakswan.

Some I've met.

Really?

I hope you reported it.

No, not really just wandering if Hoppity would accept the same standard of evidence he cites.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #226 on: September 07, 2015, 02:38:06 PM »
Really?

I hope you reported it.
You beat me to it, Rose.  If he hasn't, could he be deemed to be an accessory to the fact? 
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Shaker

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #227 on: September 07, 2015, 02:41:23 PM »
Post #250. Do try and keep up.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Anchorman

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #228 on: September 07, 2015, 02:41:41 PM »
Again, a sweeping statement, floo.
Leaving your childhood experiences aside, have you actually studied the charismatic movement in any depth before coming to your opinion?

I have seen enough of it to know it makes me want to vomit, that is how strongly I dislike it!

-
So: you've seen charismatic Anglicans?
Roman Catholics?
Church of Scotland?
When. where, and what did you see, please?

A friend of mine is a charismatic Anglican

She used to go to a Pentecostal church a long time ago.

She says she can speak in tongues.

It's not unknown to find supporters of it in the Anglican Church.

It's just not considered appropriate behaviour in the middle of a service.

My friend reckons there is no point in spouting in tongues if someone is not present who can understand them.

She wears the robes, dog collar and has been ordained although she isn 't a vicar.

She can do everything except weddings I think.


-
My experience was somewhat similar to your friend's.
I had attended a Pentecostal bible study group thirty odd years ago.
As Pentecostals go, though, they weren't 'in-your-face' sort of thing.
I wasn't particularly interested in the charisma - till one night, in a private prayer time, I started using tongues to express soomething I couldn't put into words - and I haven't stopped since.
I thought that there was no such animal as a charismatic Presbyterian - till a local minister from Prestwick and I were talking about the Holy Spirit, and he 'let slip' that he used tongues in prayer!
Arthur Kent and I became friends - and still are, though he moved away years ago.
We formed the nucleus of a charismatic group within our local Presbytery - a group that continues today.

I've never used tongues in any worship situation which might embarass or disturb my fellow worshippers, nor has there ever been a moment when I was not in control of my actions.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #229 on: September 07, 2015, 02:46:23 PM »
Really?

I hope you reported it.
You beat me to it, Rose.  If he hasn't, could he be deemed to be an accessory to the fact?

No

Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #230 on: September 07, 2015, 02:53:31 PM »
Your experience is NOT evidence, ...
Only in the scientific sense of the word, Floo.  As I've pointed before, life doesn't always adhere to scientific parameters.

Quote
At least science is credible, which mere belief isn't!
I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'credible', Floo.
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Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #231 on: September 07, 2015, 02:54:27 PM »
Well I know Christians that torture their children so ....
Evidence, please, Jakswan.
Bumped for Jakswan.   ;)
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Gordon

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #232 on: September 07, 2015, 06:47:04 PM »
Well I know Christians that torture their children so ....
Evidence, please, Jakswan.
Bumped for Jakswan.   ;)

As Shaker pointed out in #252 you need to see #250.

jakswan

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #233 on: September 07, 2015, 10:15:13 PM »
Well I know Christians that torture their children so ....
Evidence, please, Jakswan.
Bumped for Jakswan.   ;)

Oh dear I didn't know you'd need a diagram. You said 'I've met amongst a number of atheists who fill the heads of their children with unsupportable nonsense' and this is quite typical of you. Who can forget the 'verifiable evidence for a miracle' the evidence was your testimony and you failed to provide details that we could verify.

However if someone else offers a point on the same flaky grounds you won't accept it because you need supporting evidence. Which is why I ignore 90% of your posts.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #234 on: September 08, 2015, 08:51:08 AM »
Oh dear I didn't know you'd need a diagram. You said 'I've met amongst a number of atheists who fill the heads of their children with unsupportable nonsense' and this is quite typical of you. Who can forget the 'verifiable evidence for a miracle' the evidence was your testimony and you failed to provide details that we could verify.

However if someone else offers a point on the same flaky grounds you won't accept it because you need supporting evidence. Which is why I ignore 90% of your posts.
jakswan, in the case of the 'miracles' I've referred to over the years, not only did I explain what had happened, (to which no-one actually gave any answers - though I believe that there was one suggestion of the euphemistic 'spontaneous healing' response) I also explained why I could NOT provide any evidence, such as the fact that medical journals aren't very keen on publishing this kind of material, even when supported by medical records and my not having access to such records even when the patient has expressed a wiliingness to have them made public.

Obviously, reminding people about all that deatil doesn't help your case - so you conveniently forget it.

Whilst we're on the subject, how do you explain 'spontaneous healing' scientifically?

Regarding the 'I know several atheists ...' bit, this was in response to a blanket assertion by ippy about 'the determination of religious believers to fill the heads of children with insupportable nonsense' (post #240), which was a reply to my question in post #232 '...what would you be trying to say?  That parents across the world teach their children about their own belief systems, be that atheism or animism, Hinduism or Christianity?'; itself, a reply to ippy's rather truncated comment in post #219 "If I told you some of the world views these children have acquired, all when they still have the cradle marks."

May I suggest that you take the context of posts into account rather than making up your own context, or ignoring context completely.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 09:03:41 AM by Hope »
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Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #235 on: September 08, 2015, 08:53:28 AM »
By credible I mean things which don't beggar belief like virgin births and resurrections for instance!
Oh, so you are using your own credibility-gauge to generalise about everything.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #236 on: September 08, 2015, 09:02:25 AM »
By credible I mean things which don't beggar belief like virgin births and resurrections for instance!
Oh, so you are using your own credibility-gauge to generalise about everything.
Surely miracles are by definition incredible otherwise they would not be miracles.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #237 on: September 08, 2015, 09:03:40 AM »
Hope once again claiming evidence but with no methodology so speciously

Shaker

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #238 on: September 08, 2015, 09:05:49 AM »
I also explained why I could NOT provide any evidence, such as the fact that medical journals aren't very keen on publishing this kind of material, even when supported by medical records and my not having access to such records even when the patient has expressed a wiliingness to have them made public.
Ah, the usual old excuse! "I've got the evidence, but I can't show it to you." ::)

And there was me thinking Jackanory finished years ago ;)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 09:12:45 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #239 on: September 08, 2015, 09:17:51 AM »
Surely miracles are by definition incredible otherwise they would not be miracles.
I'm not convinced, NS.  A miracle can occur as a result of hard work, dedication, etc.  Take last night's Euro. qualifier between Scotland and Germany.  Had Scotland won that match, it would have been deemed a miracle by many; but that ignores the fact that the Scottish players would have put in an amazing performance, would have 'worked their socks off' and, unless there were a host of examples of good/bad luck, would have deserved that victory.  The same goes for medicine; a doctor can come across a case or condtion that they have never seen before, and for which there is no written documentation, and as a result of dogged determination and - yes - by the application of science, perform a miracle.  In my view, miracles happen, on a daily basis, in the hospitals of this and other nations.  No two cases are identical, so no doctor can perform precisely the same procedure; they will always have to deal with individual elements that complicate things.  Medical science can tell them the outline, they then have to fill in the detail for themselves.
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Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #240 on: September 08, 2015, 09:18:49 AM »
Ah, the usual old excuse! "I've got the evidence, but I can't show it to you." ::)
So, which of your views and opinions does this NOT apply to, Shaker?
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Shaker

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #241 on: September 08, 2015, 09:20:49 AM »
Ah, the usual old excuse! "I've got the evidence, but I can't show it to you." ::)
So, which of your views and opinions does this NOT apply to, Shaker?
None that spring to mind. Interesting albeit depressingly predictable to see that you've added the tu quoque to your collection of fallacies, by the way.

I'd ask you which ones you think it applies to, but I know it would be a waste of time. It always is.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #242 on: September 08, 2015, 09:48:36 AM »
A miracle can occur as a result of hard work, dedication, etc.
... in which case it isn't a miracle but the outcome of hard work and dedication.

The expertise and efforts of medical personnel especially are often denigrated and demeaned with this inane wibble about "miracles."
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 10:51:53 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

jakswan

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #243 on: September 08, 2015, 09:49:21 AM »
jakswan, in the case of the 'miracles' I've referred to over the years, not only did I explain what had happened, (to which no-one actually gave any answers

Yeah but you can't explain my pet dragon either.

Quote
- though I believe that there was one suggestion of the euphemistic 'spontaneous healing' response) I also explained why I could NOT provide any evidence, such as the fact that medical journals aren't very keen on publishing this kind of material, even when supported by medical records and my not having access to such records even when the patient has expressed a wiliingness to have them made public.

You are lying I asked you to give the name of the person cured and specific dates and times in order that we could verify the details you provided.

Quote
Obviously, reminding people about all that deatil doesn't help your case - so you conveniently forget it.

It does actually because its easier to demonstrate how you lie.

Quote
Whilst we're on the subject, how do you explain 'spontaneous healing' scientifically?

I've no interest in debating issues with you, just to clarify as I know how you will 'remember' this. Its not because I can't explain spontaneous healing or I'm scared of debating the topic its because of you and your history of lying.

Quote
Regarding blah blah

May I suggest that you take the context of posts into account rather than making up your own context, or ignoring context completely.

Right back at you, I assume you've caught up now.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
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Anchorman

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #244 on: September 08, 2015, 11:50:01 AM »
By credible I mean things which don't beggar belief like virgin births and resurrections for instance!
Oh, so you are using your own credibility-gauge to generalise about everything.

Oh come on virgin births and people popping up alive when they are truly dead, just don't happen in reality!

-
And your evidence for that assertion is....?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Leonard James

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #245 on: September 08, 2015, 03:02:19 PM »
By credible I mean things which don't beggar belief like virgin births and resurrections for instance!
Oh, so you are using your own credibility-gauge to generalise about everything.

Oh come on virgin births and people popping up alive when they are truly dead, just don't happen in reality!

-
And your evidence for that assertion is....?

The lack of any contrary evidence.

Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #246 on: September 08, 2015, 03:33:53 PM »
The lack of any contrary evidence.
... that you are able to accept in view of your world-view.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #247 on: September 08, 2015, 03:34:20 PM »
Hi Len old chum - hope the sun is shining for you and the Amontillado is chilled to perfection.

Quote
The lack of any contrary evidence.

Just to note that Hoppity's problems go much deeper than the absence of evidence (which as we all know does not constitute evidence of absence). First, he'd have to trouble himself with providing a meaningful and coherent definition of this "god" of which he speaks, and second he'd have to come up with a method or process to which any evidence could be  applied - science does it with testing etc but I've no idea how he'd propose to apply any evidence he might eventually suggest to a claim of the supernatural.

Depressingly so far at least he's failed to notice that a "don't know" (re a surprising medical cure for example) says nothing to a possible divine intervention, and he's played fast and loose with the meaning of "miracle" (conflating "surprising" with "the outcome of a divine intervention").

Ah well  ;)
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #248 on: September 08, 2015, 03:36:23 PM »
How many people do you know who have been conceived by a woman in the way Mary was supposed to have conceived Jesus? How many people who are genuinely dead have come to life again?
I assume that you are referring to human beings who are nothing but human?  Do you have any evidence that Jesus - who is of course the subject of this debate - was merely human?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #249 on: September 08, 2015, 03:48:28 PM »
Hope,

Quote
I assume that you are referring to human beings who are nothing but human?  Do you have any evidence that Jesus - who is of course the subject of this debate - was merely human?

S'funny - you've had the burden of proof issue explained to you many times, yet you continue to crash blithely through it with posts like this. Do you have any evidence that unicorns don't enjoy a nice chicken tikka masala on a Friday night?

As you have not, does that mean that my unicornist claims must be true too?
"Don't make me come down there."

God