Author Topic: Speaking in 'tongues'  (Read 197576 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #575 on: September 16, 2015, 09:00:51 AM »
This is absolutely not the case.  We can see just by the way the gospels were modified from one to the next that early Christians didn't place too much store in perfect oral transmission.
In what way(s) were the gospels 'modified from one to the next', jeremy?

Clearly you haven't read them recently. 

As an example, look at the stories of the discovery of the empty tomb. They all have variation of detail which means that either the oral tradition was not transmitted perfectly to some of them or (as is probably the case with Matthew and Luke) they didn't copy Mark properly.

Christians were not careful to preserve oral tradition.

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Are you suggesting that, because The Times and The BBC 'modify' a given story to match their respective audiences (often adding different cultural and historical references to make for easier understanding, or incuding different, but legitimate details), neither report is reliable?

If this analogy is credible then you are saying that gospel authors modified the story for their chosen audience. I'm not sure why you think knowing the reason why a text is not reliable makes it acceptable.

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Plus the Christians of Paul's period placed more emphasis on knowledge obtained by revelation than on stories of actual events.
Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?

Paul insists his gospel is taught from revelation not word of mouth by Peter et al.

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What oral tradition have you got from first century Palestine?
We know that, for the first 10 or so years of the faith, little or nothing was written down, everything being transmitted orally.  Even the New Testament documents acknowledge that.  Then, possibly as early as 45 AD, Paul wrote Galations in which he summarised the tenets of the faith.  Over the next 50 years, the oral transmisson of the faith occurred in tandem with the development of the written records (of the 26 documents within the New Testamant as we have it now, there are none whose earliest, widely accepted date of composition is more than 60 years after the events, only 4 have a earliest date of composition more than 40 years after the events and 17 have an earliest date of composition within 30 years of the events).
But you haven't got any of the oral tradition, which is what I asked for. You only have the documentary tradition. And the writer of the earliest documents received the gospel by revelation, not oral tradition.

Incidentally, most of what you have written about oral tradition is no more than guesswork.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #576 on: September 16, 2015, 09:10:51 AM »
Hope.

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And do you know the history of the game's name? It has nothing to do with 'the unreliability of oral transmission even in a small group in one room over a very short period of time'.  Rather it has to do with the unreliability of oral tradition between people of different mother tongues - originally the interaction between Europeans and the Chinese in the 1600s.

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Historians trace Westerners' use of the word Chinese to denote "confusion" and "incomprehensibility" to the earliest contacts between Europeans and Chinese people in the 1600s, and attribute it to Europeans' inability to understand China's culture and worldview. Using the phrase "Chinese whispers" suggested a belief that the Chinese language itself is not understandable. The more fundamental metonymic use of the name of a foreign language to represent a broader class of situations involving foreign languages or difficulty of understanding a language is also captured in older idioms such as It's all Greek to me!.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers

Historically, it has absolutely no connection to an out of context message, passed down by a group of individuals (often young children with little or no experience of life) brought up in a literate society in a game situation - and therefore largely devoid of the knowledge of oral devices used to retain the structure and word order of a far longer piece of transmitted information.  Read Walter Ong's 'Orality and Literacy' 1982.  See here for a summary - http://bit.ly/1Mr8bQi

Wow! Just wow. Do you think perhaps that we should have a prize for the post that most spectacularly, utterly and hilariously misses the point? I’d say we should, only I think you’ve so claimed it for your own with this effort that no-one could ever wrest it from you.

Genius. Just genius.

The point of course is that the origins of the name of the party game have nothing whatever to do with the phenomenon being described. Put a dozen or so people in a room. Have person A whisper a sentence to person B, B to C etc until the end. The last person then says out loud the message. Much hilarity ensues.

The point is that even people of the same language in the same place and at the same time will get messages (which by the way do not rely on Person A’s accurate interpretation of an event he thinks he saw but that may well have a cause entirely other than the one he attributed to it) utterly wrong after just a few re-tellings.

It gets worse. There’s a cascade of inaccuracy effect that happens (the name for which escapes me just now*) whereby minor mistakes amplify the distortion such that a small change of word or nuance then becomes the baseline for the listener, which in turn has an exaggerated effect on the next re-telling etc. That’s why the Chinese whispers game works – huge differences occur over very short chains of recounting.

Then it gets worse again. People tend to be selective in their re-tellings. They decide which bits to emphasise and which to leave out – sometimes just because they want to make it more interesting, sometimes because they’re working to an agenda: if you want to persuade your audience, you’ll embellish when it suits and leave out inconvenient parts when it doesn’t.

Result? The oral tradition is notoriously the least reliable method of all for the passing on of factual detail. Watching you decide on your faith position a priori and then twisting and bending reality to reach its opposite is fun and all, but really Hope…

…just really.

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I am perfectly happy to accept said oral transmissons as valid transmissions.  That is very different to believing that they are true since there is absolutely no historical evidence for the majority of said stories.  I choose to accept the Judeo-Christian ones because there is sufficient historical evidence to corroborate large chunks of the underlying information, even if some of the details are - by definition - unlikely to leave archeological footprints.

It’s like watching someone dive head first into a black hole of daftness and emerge into the far side of bonkersism. There’s “absolutely no historical evidence” for your preferred miracle story either. All you have is the oral tradition, at least for the first 160 years or so and as we both know that’s the least reliable method of all.

Look, if you really want to set the evidence bar for your own faith so low that it’s practically underground but to insist that it be higher for everyone else’s miracle stories that’s up to you, but you’ll understand I hope why the rest of us just shake our heads in bewilderment at the self-deception it must take to carry it off with a straight face. 

* Coda: it's called "cumulative error".
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 10:12:51 AM by bluehillside »
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Shaker

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #577 on: September 16, 2015, 09:14:11 AM »
Blue: I've just discovered that it's difficult to type while giving a standing ovation.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #578 on: September 16, 2015, 09:22:12 AM »
Aw Shakes, stop it now... :-[
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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #579 on: September 16, 2015, 09:50:11 AM »
Just wondering is the 'reliability' of the oral tradition responsible for the repetition of the multitude feeding miracle claim in Matthew and Mark? Or were Jesus's follower so naturally forgetful that after one loaves and fishes miracle, when it was needed to happen again they had fogotten about Jesus' ability  to do this?

Leonard James

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #580 on: September 16, 2015, 10:37:17 AM »
Damn you both Blue and Jeremy! Here I was thinking that my memory problems were going to be solved by these devices that Hope spoke about, and you have completely destroyed the hope.  >:(

Outrider

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #581 on: September 16, 2015, 11:28:13 AM »
Damn you both Blue and Jeremy! Here I was thinking that my memory problems were going to be solved by these devices that Hope spoke about, and you have completely destroyed the hope.  >:(

Why is it one forgets the things one needs to remember, but remembers the things one would sooner forget?

I used to know this... hang on...

O.
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Leonard James

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #582 on: September 16, 2015, 11:40:48 AM »
Damn you both Blue and Jeremy! Here I was thinking that my memory problems were going to be solved by these devices that Hope spoke about, and you have completely destroyed the hope.  >:(

Why is it one forgets the things one needs to remember, but remembers the things one would sooner forget?

It's all part of the gift "God" has given you!  ;D

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #583 on: September 16, 2015, 04:20:54 PM »
It's OK to pray privately and silently in tongues, if that is your wont.  Sometimes things cannot be put into words that everyone understands.
Interestingly, that is what Paul and other NT writers generally regard tongues for - private prayer and worship.  However, I have no problems with people praying - as a part of a group all worshipping - in tongues.

The best example I've experienced was when I actually interpreted/translated the words that were said in tongues.  It was very simple really.  This particular person - who has never claimed to have been able to speak anything other than English - spoke in a language that was clearly wasn't English - or Welsh, but as I listened I could understand it perfectly - it was basic Nepali!!  We had only arrived home from Nepal 3 weeks earlier!!

That is wonderful Hope!  :) .  I hope you told the person that it was Nepali (I expect they already knew).

A group of people praying quietly in tongues is OK I suppose but I still have the feeling it is a kind of showing off.  If I suddenly start babbling I promise I will keep it private!
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Spud

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #584 on: September 16, 2015, 08:19:44 PM »
Just wondering is the 'reliability' of the oral tradition responsible for the repetition of the multitude feeding miracle claim in Matthew and Mark? Or were Jesus's follower so naturally forgetful that after one loaves and fishes miracle, when it was needed to happen again they had fogotten about Jesus' ability  to do this?
No, it's nothing to do with unreliable oral tradition; rather, the two miracles happen in different regions: Jewish and Gentile-occupied territories respectively. Jesus was demonstrating that he is king of Jew and Gentile, and a king who feeds the people, unlike Herod and the Pharisees (cf Mark 6:34). That the disciples forgot his ability to provide food, the second time round, is explained in the subsequent verses. (Eg .Mark 8:18)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 08:22:45 PM by Spud »

jeremyp

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #585 on: September 16, 2015, 09:22:20 PM »

No, it's nothing to do with unreliable oral tradition; rather, the two miracles happen in different regions: Jewish and Gentile-occupied territories respectively. Jesus was demonstrating that he is king of Jew and Gentile, and a king who feeds the people, unlike Herod and the Pharisees (cf Mark 6:34). That the disciples forgot his ability to provide food, the second time round, is explained in the subsequent verses. (Eg .Mark 8:18)

Yes but, on the second occasion the disciples said this:

“How can one feed these people with bread here in the desert?”

This was only two chapters after they had witnessed Jesus feeding 5,000. How stupid were they?
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Spud

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #586 on: September 16, 2015, 11:07:18 PM »
Mark explains their problem in 6:52: their heart was hardened, because they haven't understand about the loaves. Even after the feeding of the 4000 they still have this problem.

jeremyp

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #587 on: September 17, 2015, 08:37:27 AM »
Mark explains their problem in 6:52: their heart was hardened, because they haven't understand about the loaves. Even after the feeding of the 4000 they still have this problem.

Is “heart hardening” a figurative expression for “having the memory of a goldfish”?

Why did Jesus choose such a bunch of losers for his disciples?
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Leonard James

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #588 on: September 17, 2015, 09:29:19 AM »


Why did Jesus choose such a bunch of losers for his disciples?

They were probably the only ones he could find that were daft enough to give up everything and follow him.

Spud

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #589 on: September 17, 2015, 10:46:59 AM »
Mark explains their problem in 6:52: their heart was hardened, because they haven't understand about the loaves. Even after the feeding of the 4000 they still have this problem.

Is “heart hardening” a figurative expression for “having the memory of a goldfish”?

Why did Jesus choose such a bunch of losers for his disciples?

Well it certainly is a figurative expression, possibly for being 'of little faith'.

I'm not sure if you and NS were implying that the accounts of the two miracles are different versions of the same one?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 01:09:04 PM by Spud »

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #590 on: September 17, 2015, 03:09:27 PM »
Mark explains their problem in 6:52: their heart was hardened, because they haven't understand about the loaves. Even after the feeding of the 4000 they still have this problem.

Is “heart hardening” a figurative expression for “having the memory of a goldfish”?

Why did Jesus choose such a bunch of losers for his disciples?
Not so fast, young sir.

If you look at what has been happening, we see that Jesus feeds 5000+ in Mark 6 in a Jewish area, so presumably the 5000+ were very largely Jewish. Come 7:24 Jesus is in a gentile area and heals a woman's daughter, then he goes to the Decapolis, which is another gentile area, and heals a deaf and mute man. Next he feeds the 4000. It does not mention Jesus going anywhere separate to that prior to that miracle, so he may well still be in a gentile area. As you know the Jews were not particularly fans of gentiles and, I would suggest, the disciples may have been OK with Jesus feeding 5000+ Jewish blokes, but needed it drummed into them that Jesus was interested in gentiles too. Hence, 3 miracles in gentile areas. Maybe they couldn't believe that Jesus would do for a (largely?) gentile crowd what he had done for a Jewish crowd.

Peter: We've run out of food again, Philip. What are we going to do?
Philip: Jesus fed 5000+ a while back. Why not again?
Peter: Yeh, but they were Norwich fans. Surely he wouldn't do it for Liverpool fans. Come on. I mean, think about it it Philip.
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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #591 on: September 17, 2015, 04:04:39 PM »
Mark explains their problem in 6:52: their heart was hardened, because they haven't understand about the loaves. Even after the feeding of the 4000 they still have this problem.

Is “heart hardening” a figurative expression for “having the memory of a goldfish”?

Why did Jesus choose such a bunch of losers for his disciples?
Not so fast, young sir.

If you look at what has been happening, we see that Jesus feeds 5000+ in Mark 6 in a Jewish area, so presumably the 5000+ were very largely Jewish. Come 7:24 Jesus is in a gentile area and heals a woman's daughter, then he goes to the Decapolis, which is another gentile area, and heals a deaf and mute man. Next he feeds the 4000. It does not mention Jesus going anywhere separate to that prior to that miracle, so he may well still be in a gentile area. As you know the Jews were not particularly fans of gentiles and, I would suggest, the disciples may have been OK with Jesus feeding 5000+ Jewish blokes, but needed it drummed into them that Jesus was interested in gentiles too. Hence, 3 miracles in gentile areas. Maybe they couldn't believe that Jesus would do for a (largely?) gentile crowd what he had done for a Jewish crowd.

Peter: We've run out of food again, Philip. What are we going to do?
Philip: Jesus fed 5000+ a while back. Why not again?
Peter: Yeh, but they were Norwich fans. Surely he wouldn't do it for Liverpool fans. Come on. I mean, think about it it Philip.

The Gospel of Alan we always forget that one. :)
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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #592 on: September 17, 2015, 04:07:51 PM »
Peter: We've run out of food again, Philip. What are we going to do?
Philip: Jesus fed 5000+ a while back. Why not again?
Peter: Yeh, but they were Norwich fans. Surely he wouldn't do it for Liverpool fans. Come on. I mean, think about it it Philip.

OK, now I KNOW that's a fabrication - 5000 Norwich fans? Really? And as for the prospect of having 5000 Liverpool fans in the area and still having been able to hold on to five fish and some loaves...

O.
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Alien

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #593 on: September 17, 2015, 04:09:23 PM »
Mark explains their problem in 6:52: their heart was hardened, because they haven't understand about the loaves. Even after the feeding of the 4000 they still have this problem.

Is “heart hardening” a figurative expression for “having the memory of a goldfish”?

Why did Jesus choose such a bunch of losers for his disciples?
Not so fast, young sir.

If you look at what has been happening, we see that Jesus feeds 5000+ in Mark 6 in a Jewish area, so presumably the 5000+ were very largely Jewish. Come 7:24 Jesus is in a gentile area and heals a woman's daughter, then he goes to the Decapolis, which is another gentile area, and heals a deaf and mute man. Next he feeds the 4000. It does not mention Jesus going anywhere separate to that prior to that miracle, so he may well still be in a gentile area. As you know the Jews were not particularly fans of gentiles and, I would suggest, the disciples may have been OK with Jesus feeding 5000+ Jewish blokes, but needed it drummed into them that Jesus was interested in gentiles too. Hence, 3 miracles in gentile areas. Maybe they couldn't believe that Jesus would do for a (largely?) gentile crowd what he had done for a Jewish crowd.

Peter: We've run out of food again, Philip. What are we going to do?
Philip: Jesus fed 5000+ a while back. Why not again?
Peter: Yeh, but they were Norwich fans. Surely he wouldn't do it for Liverpool fans. Come on. I mean, think about it it Philip.

The Gospel of Alan we always forget that one. :)
So what was wrong with what I wrote? Have you read the passages?
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Alien

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #594 on: September 17, 2015, 04:10:22 PM »
Peter: We've run out of food again, Philip. What are we going to do?
Philip: Jesus fed 5000+ a while back. Why not again?
Peter: Yeh, but they were Norwich fans. Surely he wouldn't do it for Liverpool fans. Come on. I mean, think about it it Philip.

OK, now I KNOW that's a fabrication - 5000 Norwich fans? Really? And as for the prospect of having 5000 Liverpool fans in the area and still having been able to hold on to five fish and some loaves...

O.
Point taken. The gits nicked my Norwich scarf once when I was a kid. Probably ate it.
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Spud

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #595 on: September 18, 2015, 09:54:45 AM »
Mark explains their problem in 6:52: their heart was hardened, because they haven't understand about the loaves. Even after the feeding of the 4000 they still have this problem.

Is “heart hardening” a figurative expression for “having the memory of a goldfish”?

Why did Jesus choose such a bunch of losers for his disciples?

See Alan's post. Part of the reason they apparently forgot about the feeding of the 5000 may be that their idea of the messianic kingdom was that it was for the Jews only.


Hope

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #596 on: September 18, 2015, 05:19:01 PM »
That is wonderful Hope!  :) .  I hope you told the person that it was Nepali (I expect they already knew).
Why would they know that it was Nepali already?

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A group of people praying quietly in tongues is OK I suppose but I still have the feeling it is a kind of showing off.
Why?
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #597 on: September 18, 2015, 05:44:12 PM »
I know a bloke who regularly feeds 5000 people with 5 loaves and 2 fish.  :o

.....he runs a tapas bar!  ;D



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jeremyp

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #598 on: September 18, 2015, 11:49:04 PM »
If you look at what has been happening, we see that Jesus feeds 5000+ in Mark 6 in a Jewish area, so presumably the 5000+ were very largely Jewish. Come 7:24 Jesus is in a gentile area and heals a woman's daughter, then he goes to the Decapolis, which is another gentile area, and heals a deaf and mute man. Next he feeds the 4000. It does not mention Jesus going anywhere separate to that prior to that miracle, so he may well still be in a gentile area. As you know the Jews were not particularly fans of gentiles and, I would suggest, the disciples may have been OK with Jesus feeding 5000+ Jewish blokes, but needed it drummed into them that Jesus was interested in gentiles too. Hence, 3 miracles in gentile areas. Maybe they couldn't believe that Jesus would do for a (largely?) gentile crowd what he had done for a Jewish crowd.

Peter: We've run out of food again, Philip. What are we going to do?
Philip: Jesus fed 5000+ a while back. Why not again?
Peter: Yeh, but they were Norwich fans. Surely he wouldn't do it for Liverpool fans. Come on. I mean, think about it it Philip.

“How can one feed these people with bread here in the desert”

not

“How can one feed these gentiles with bread here in the desert”

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Alien

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #599 on: September 19, 2015, 09:57:46 AM »
If you look at what has been happening, we see that Jesus feeds 5000+ in Mark 6 in a Jewish area, so presumably the 5000+ were very largely Jewish. Come 7:24 Jesus is in a gentile area and heals a woman's daughter, then he goes to the Decapolis, which is another gentile area, and heals a deaf and mute man. Next he feeds the 4000. It does not mention Jesus going anywhere separate to that prior to that miracle, so he may well still be in a gentile area. As you know the Jews were not particularly fans of gentiles and, I would suggest, the disciples may have been OK with Jesus feeding 5000+ Jewish blokes, but needed it drummed into them that Jesus was interested in gentiles too. Hence, 3 miracles in gentile areas. Maybe they couldn't believe that Jesus would do for a (largely?) gentile crowd what he had done for a Jewish crowd.

Peter: We've run out of food again, Philip. What are we going to do?
Philip: Jesus fed 5000+ a while back. Why not again?
Peter: Yeh, but they were Norwich fans. Surely he wouldn't do it for Liverpool fans. Come on. I mean, think about it it Philip.

“How can one feed these people with bread here in the desert”

not

“How can one feed these gentiles with bread here in the desert”
Are you serious?

Assuming your are, remember that people get hungry, but that the disciples may have thought that Jesus would not want to feed them because they were gentiles. This is the third of three pericopes about Jesus including gentiles in his work, so it seems, to me at least, likely that it involved stuff happening because they were gentiles.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 11:16:24 AM by Alien »
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