Author Topic: Speaking in 'tongues'  (Read 196926 times)

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #975 on: October 12, 2015, 12:18:56 AM »

Spud made a post that was in error. Are you saying we should just let mistakes stand?


You are not allowed to find fault with Christians ... it's not cricket!

But you still do.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #976 on: October 12, 2015, 03:43:39 AM »
What the Bible tells us and what the charismatics are doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqCMDRBissI

Leonard James

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #977 on: October 12, 2015, 06:27:47 AM »

Spud made a post that was in error. Are you saying we should just let mistakes stand?


You are not allowed to find fault with Christians ... it's not cricket!

But you still do.

Honesty is the best policy.

Spud

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #978 on: October 12, 2015, 07:58:57 AM »
If you were referring to Daniel 11:36-45, we've discussed this before. Have a squiz at http://tinyurl.com/cbpfr6t
Here is an interesting bit, concerning Daniel 11:35:
Quote
Beginning with Mattathias' leadership of the rebellion against Antiochus IV, the rule of the Hasmoneans (named after Mattathias' grandfather, Asmoneus) lasted from 168 until 37 BCE. The words "until the time of the end" refer to the end of this second period of Jewish sovereignty. The "appointed time" refers to the 70 weeks of years that Gabriel had earlier told Daniel about (Dan. 9:24-27), which led to the appearance of the Messiah.
If you scroll down to the above paragraph and read on, the link explains how 'the king' in verse 36 is Herod the Great. "...the king of the South is Mark Antony and his ally Cleopatra (the last monarch to occupy the Egyptian throne). The king of the North is Octavius, who as the official representative of Rome, was ruler of the former Syrian empire of the Seleucids."

If you still think that these verses refer to Antiochus IV, can you explain what you think is meant by 'the time of the end'?

Your link is wrong. Historians even use Daniel as a primary source for the Maccabean revolt because its author clearly witnessed the events.
I accept that it may be wrong about Herod etc. But it is interesting to read about Antiochus IV's campaign against Egypt and about what happened in Judea and Persia. Assuming Daniel is talkingg about Antiochus in Ch 11 and 12, the prophecy doesn't seem far off.
Then as you say, one can decide whether it is written after the events or before them as true prophecy.

Gordon

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #979 on: October 12, 2015, 08:32:08 AM »
I accept that it may be wrong about Herod etc. But it is interesting to read about Antiochus IV's campaign against Egypt and about what happened in Judea and Persia. Assuming Daniel is talking about Antiochus in Ch 11 and 12, the prophecy doesn't seem far off.

So, you say that what we have 'doesn't seem far off' provided you add in an assumption first: not very convincing, Spud. 

DaveM

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #980 on: October 12, 2015, 08:54:08 AM »
Your link is wrong. Historians even use Daniel as a primary source for the Maccabean revolt because its author clearly witnessed the events.
I would suggest that a preferred view would be that Daniel 11 simply illustrates in a particularly powerful way that, a) God is in control, b) He knows the end from the beginning and the future course of history and c) when He chooses so to do, He is perfectly capable of revealing the future course of history in fine detail to those who have put their trust in Him.

Leonard James

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #981 on: October 12, 2015, 09:07:37 AM »

I would suggest that a preferred view would be that Daniel 11 simply illustrates in a particularly powerful way that, a) God is in control, b) He knows the end from the beginning and the future course of history and c) when He chooses so to do, He is perfectly capable of revealing the future course of history in fine detail to those who have put their trust in Him.

That is what the writer of Daniel believed was the case. He was as deluded as all the other writers who claimed "God" really existed.

Sadly, there is not the slightest testable evidence that such was the case.

Conversely there is a load of evidence that the human brain can convince itself of the most extraordinary things even when evidence is lacking.

Leonard James

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #982 on: October 12, 2015, 10:00:10 AM »

The human brain is certainly capable of the most extraordinary feats, which can be very convincing. I thought I saw Mary in our 'miracle' field in 1997! As she looked like the picture book version, for the second or two I saw her, I realised my mind was playing tricks.

Unfortunately, there are many gullible people that would come to a very different conclusion!  :(

ippy

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #983 on: October 12, 2015, 10:15:36 AM »

I would suggest that a preferred view would be that Daniel 11 simply illustrates in a particularly powerful way that, a) God is in control, b) He knows the end from the beginning and the future course of history and c) when He chooses so to do, He is perfectly capable of revealing the future course of history in fine detail to those who have put their trust in Him.

That is what the writer of Daniel believed was the case. He was as deluded as all the other writers who claimed "God" really existed.

Sadly, there is not the slightest testable evidence that such was the case.

Conversely there is a load of evidence that the human brain can convince itself of the most extraordinary things even when evidence is lacking.

The human brain is certainly capable of the most extraordinary feats, which can be very convincing. I thought I saw Mary in our 'miracle' field in 1997! As she looked like the picture book version, for the second or two I saw her, I realised my mind was playing tricks.

You're right Floo, I have two hearing aids and when I first put them on each morning they sound tinny for a few moments, until Mr Brain, what's left of it, turns this tinny twosome into a well rounded natural sound for me, it's all automatic whilst for certain the hearing aids in reality keep putting out the same old tinny sound.

Another one of those every day feats our brains are capable of.

ippy

 

Spud

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #984 on: October 12, 2015, 10:18:03 AM »
I accept that it may be wrong about Herod etc. But it is interesting to read about Antiochus IV's campaign against Egypt and about what happened in Judea and Persia. Assuming Daniel is talking about Antiochus in Ch 11 and 12, the prophecy doesn't seem far off.

So, you say that what we have 'doesn't seem far off' provided you add in an assumption first: not very convincing, Spud.

I meant that the details given in Daniel 11:36 to the end of Ch 12 seem to fit fairly well with Antiochus IV whether or not you assume they are true prophecy,  G. I'd be interested to know if anyone agrees.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 10:19:39 AM by Spud »

Gordon

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #985 on: October 12, 2015, 10:40:29 AM »
Spud

I'll predict that someone well-known as an entertainer will die within the next calendar year: I could even specify that it will be a musician. I stand a fair chance of my prophecy coming true. You'll note that the terms 'well-known', 'entertainer' and 'musician' are handily imprecise.

So, when you say 'fit fairly well with Antiochus IV' this still seems to include the risk of imprecision.

ippy

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #986 on: October 12, 2015, 10:52:02 AM »
Spud

I'll predict that someone well-known as an entertainer will die within the next calendar year: I could even specify that it will be a musician. I stand a fair chance of my prophecy coming true. You'll note that the terms 'well-known', 'entertainer' and 'musician' are handily imprecise.

So, when you say 'fit fairly well with Antiochus IV' this still seems to include the risk of imprecision.

Like it; in a nutshell.

ippy

DaveM

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #987 on: October 12, 2015, 12:14:21 PM »
Spud

I'll predict that someone well-known as an entertainer will die within the next calendar year: I could even specify that it will be a musician. I stand a fair chance of my prophecy coming true. You'll note that the terms 'well-known', 'entertainer' and 'musician' are handily imprecise.

So, when you say 'fit fairly well with Antiochus IV' this still seems to include the risk of imprecision.
Reminds me of the Prof of Statistics several years ago who took eight prophecies relating to the life of Jesus.  All were from OT writings where there is general agreement that they dated back at least 400 years before Christ.  He then gave his senior class an exercise to calculate the probability of all eight being fulfilled in one person.  They came up with a figure of 1:1017.  So perhaps another seven prophecies from you would be in order.

The results were published in a respected journal.  So clearly his methodology was considered acceptable.

There were of course over 30 prophecies fulfilled in the last week of Christ's life alone.

But I forget.  Floo has it on the highest authority that the Gospels were specially invented and written to ensure that all prophecies were retrospectively accounted for.  How fortunate that not one was missing. ::) ::) 

jakswan

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #988 on: October 12, 2015, 12:31:23 PM »
Reminds me of the Prof of Statistics several years ago who took eight prophecies relating to the life of Jesus.  All were from OT writings where there is general agreement that they dated back at least 400 years before Christ.  He then gave his senior class an exercise to calculate the probability of all eight being fulfilled in one person.  They came up with a figure of 1:1017.  So perhaps another seven prophecies from you would be in order.

The results were published in a respected journal.  So clearly his methodology was considered acceptable.


That reminds of lordy chiefy winkle dip dopper, first grade of swippers, hopalong brigade who said exactly the opposite. 
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Gordon

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #989 on: October 12, 2015, 01:14:39 PM »

Reminds me of the Prof of Statistics several years ago who took eight prophecies relating to the life of Jesus.  All were from OT writings where there is general agreement that they dated back at least 400 years before Christ.  He then gave his senior class an exercise to calculate the probability of all eight being fulfilled in one person.  They came up with a figure of 1:1017.  So perhaps another seven prophecies from you would be in order.

The results were published in a respected journal.  So clearly his methodology was considered acceptable.

Then we need a link so as to review the method, Dave.

DaveM

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #990 on: October 12, 2015, 01:23:57 PM »

Reminds me of the Prof of Statistics several years ago who took eight prophecies relating to the life of Jesus.  All were from OT writings where there is general agreement that they dated back at least 400 years before Christ.  He then gave his senior class an exercise to calculate the probability of all eight being fulfilled in one person.  They came up with a figure of 1:1017.  So perhaps another seven prophecies from you would be in order.

The results were published in a respected journal.  So clearly his methodology was considered acceptable.
Then we need a link so as to review the method, Dave.
Sorry but cannot help you there.  No idea whether the info is on the  web or not.  This is information I heard first hand perhaps some 30 years ago at a Christian gathering.  The figure of  1:1017 is one that has always stuck in my memory.

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #991 on: October 12, 2015, 01:40:22 PM »
                     


             http://www.bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm        please check all of them

            ~TW~
" Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs/George Burns

BeRational

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #992 on: October 12, 2015, 01:47:05 PM »
                     


             http://www.bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm        please check all of them

            ~TW~

Can you pick one, so we cab go through it and show that is not a prophecy but just some vague guess.

A prophecy has to be something that you would not normally be able to predict (like it will rain in 2016 somewhere), it must be SPECIFIC, and only happen once.

If I say England will win the next world cup by winning 10 - 0 in the final, and then actually win 9 - 0, then the prophecy FAILS.

There is no close! You either get it EXACTLY correct or it is wrong.

I expect any prophecy you care to mention will not pass the test.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #993 on: October 12, 2015, 01:47:42 PM »
DaveM,

Quote
Reminds me of the Prof of Statistics several years ago who took eight prophecies relating to the life of Jesus.  All were from OT writings where there is general agreement that they dated back at least 400 years before Christ.  He then gave his senior class an exercise to calculate the probability of all eight being fulfilled in one person.  They came up with a figure of 1:1017.  So perhaps another seven prophecies from you would be in order.

The results were published in a respected journal.  So clearly his methodology was considered acceptable.

There were of course over 30 prophecies fulfilled in the last week of Christ's life alone.

But I forget.  Floo has it on the highest authority that the Gospels were specially invented and written to ensure that all prophecies were retrospectively accounted for.  How fortunate that not one was missing.

A “Prof of statistics” eh? “Published in a "respected journal” you say?

Well, it should be easy enough for you find a citation or two then I’d have thought. See, there’s a funny thing about stories like this beloved of religious websites and the like – they very often aren’t true.

I know! Shocking eh?

So if you could just, you know, reference this respected journal that’d help a lot.

Thanks.

Oh, and in the meantime being a professor of statistics and all presumably he’d have been aware of the pitfalls inherent in this kind of thing. What methods did he employ do you think to address the usual ones?

For example:

Authenticity: how did he eliminate the possibility of additions, alterations etc after the prophesied events had actually occurred?

Specificity: it’d be awful wouldn’t it if, say, the prophecy had said something like “a charismatic preacher shall arise” and someone had just retro-fitted the one that suited – say, ooh I dunno, Jesus mabe – and claimed that it had been fulfilled when any other charismatics would have done just as well.

Inevitability: “A great empire shall fall” for example sounds pretty impressive when one does in fact fall, but the problem is that empires (and lots of other things) inevitably come and go all the time.

Silent evidence: if I e-mailed you to tell you whether the FTSE would end the week either up or down and got it right, and then did the same thing a dozen times in a row I’d be a financial genius right? Actually no, if I’d also e-mailed thousands of others and got it wrong your results would just be dumb luck – only persuasive to you if your ignored all the misses. 

What other predictions in this remarkable tome were wrong would you say, just to eliminate the dumb luck problem you understand?

Probability weighting: how in any case would you propose to assign a probability weighting to each of these future events? What if the book said there’s be a son of god only his name would be Fred, would that still count? How about Mohammed? Or Josus? Or what if it said there’d be a feeding miracle, only instead of loaves and fish it would involve tapenade and cheesy wotsits? Still a probability of one would you say?
 
No doubt all will be made clear when we read the article you’re going to cite though won’t it.

Won’t it?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 02:03:00 PM by bluehillside »
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #994 on: October 12, 2015, 01:49:48 PM »

The human brain is certainly capable of the most extraordinary feats, which can be very convincing. I thought I saw Mary in our 'miracle' field in 1997! As she looked like the picture book version, for the second or two I saw her, I realised my mind was playing tricks.

Unfortunately, there are many gullible people that would come to a very different conclusion!  :(

"I talk to the trees, that's why they put me away."  Good old Goons song version.    ;D ;D
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #995 on: October 12, 2015, 01:50:29 PM »
                     


             http://www.bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm        please check all of them

            ~TW~

Can you pick one, so we cab go through it and show that is not a prophecy but just some vague guess.

A prophecy has to be something that you would not normally be able to predict (like it will rain in 2016 somewhere), it must be SPECIFIC, and only happen once.

If I say England will win the next world cup by winning 10 - 0 in the final, and then actually win 9 - 0, then the prophecy FAILS.

There is no close! You either get it EXACTLY correct or it is wrong.

I expect any prophecy you care to mention will not pass the test.

Put it on your prayer list also add Lord make evolution true.

         ~TW~
" Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs/George Burns

BeRational

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #996 on: October 12, 2015, 01:53:43 PM »
                     


             http://www.bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm        please check all of them

            ~TW~

Can you pick one, so we cab go through it and show that is not a prophecy but just some vague guess.

A prophecy has to be something that you would not normally be able to predict (like it will rain in 2016 somewhere), it must be SPECIFIC, and only happen once.

If I say England will win the next world cup by winning 10 - 0 in the final, and then actually win 9 - 0, then the prophecy FAILS.

There is no close! You either get it EXACTLY correct or it is wrong.

I expect any prophecy you care to mention will not pass the test.

Put it on your prayer list also add Lord make evolution true.

         ~TW~

So you do not have one.

Can we safely discount this claim of prophecy now?

I do not care if evolution is true or not. The theory certainly seems to hold up the observed evolution that happens.

If evolution was found to be wrong tomorrow, that would not mean that there was a god that did it.

It would just mean we need a new theory that can explain everything that the old theory did, but it can cope with whatever meant the old theory was wrong.

Do you understand that?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #997 on: October 12, 2015, 01:54:25 PM »
DaveM,

Quote
Sorry but cannot help you there.  No idea whether the info is on the  web or not.  This is information I heard first hand perhaps some 30 years ago at a Christian gathering.  The figure of  1:1017 is one that has always stuck in my memory.

Aw no Dave, say it ain't so!

Funny that eh? Shame really - I had the editor of Statistics Monthly on the line ready to clear the front page for your scoop. Would have looked lovely on the Christmas Special edition.

Ah well.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 01:56:55 PM by bluehillside »
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God

Gordon

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #998 on: October 12, 2015, 02:21:36 PM »

Reminds me of the Prof of Statistics several years ago who took eight prophecies relating to the life of Jesus.  All were from OT writings where there is general agreement that they dated back at least 400 years before Christ.  He then gave his senior class an exercise to calculate the probability of all eight being fulfilled in one person.  They came up with a figure of 1:1017.  So perhaps another seven prophecies from you would be in order.

The results were published in a respected journal.  So clearly his methodology was considered acceptable.
Then we need a link so as to review the method, Dave.
Sorry but cannot help you there.  No idea whether the info is on the  web or not.  This is information I heard first hand perhaps some 30 years ago at a Christian gathering.  The figure of  1:1017 is one that has always stuck in my memory.

So, not to be taken seriously then.

Pity - I'd have been interested to see whether the statistical tests used to estimate the likelihood of random chance being a factor were parametric or non-parametric. Of course, words like 'likelihood' or 'probability' are inappropriate/silly when used in relation to supernatural claims. 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Speaking in 'tongues'
« Reply #999 on: October 12, 2015, 02:28:09 PM »
Due to the wonders of search engines, I think that what DaveM is talking about is referred to below

http://www.bereanpublishers.com/the-odds-of-eight-messianic-prophecies-coming-true/