Who is wrong in this?!

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is a news item about a school ritual....turned into a rape case.

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/in-st-pauls-rape-trial-girl-vividly-recounts-night-of-school-ritual-1209104?pfrom=home-lateststories

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It was just days from graduation last year, the season of a campus rite called the "senior salute," when older students ask younger ones to join them for a walk, a kiss, or more.

The girl was 15 and a freshman at the time. She had agreed to follow a suitor, Owen Labrie, then 18, to the roof of a campus building to which he had a key.

Then, she said, he took her into a dark maintenance room. When they kissed, she did not object. But soon he began to grope her; he bit her chest too, she said, and tried more than once to remove her underwear.

"I said, 'No, no, no, keep it up here,'" said the girl, signaling above her waist. "I tried to be as polite as possible."

Her voice shook as she described the encounter escalating. "I wanted to not cause a conflict," she said. It began to hurt, she said, but she did not know what to do: "I felt like I was frozen."

In graphic detail, with a mix of poise, sorrow and anger, she accused Labrie of violating her trust and her body, while noting that even as what she described as the assault was happening, she worried about offending him or drawing ridicule from other students at St. Paul's.

The two messaged each other after the encounter, and Labrie wrote that he wore a condom during part of it. She nevertheless went to a school medical facility for emergency contraception, she said, and, when asked if she had had a consensual sexual encounter, she said yes. "It was so much easier," she said, noting that at the time she was running late to save her parents seats for her sister's graduation ceremony. She added, "It's been really hard to stand up."

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Who/what is wrong here? 

The boy... who did more than he was 'allowed' by the girl?

The girl...for allowing the boy to do things that he could not perhaps control later?

The school.... for allowing such 'rituals'?

The liberal social system... that permits such situations among teens in the first place?

Any views?

Sriram

[Nearly Sane]

Don't know the facts of case and neither the report nor your edited version of it are sufficient for me to have much idea of what happened BUT even suggesting that a woman is somehow responsible if she is raped for a man being out of control is witless.

[Aruntraveller]

If the facts are as reported then clearly the boy is in the wrong. the girl appears to have been concerned about "appearances".

The liberal social system... that permits such situations among teens in the first place?

Yeah right - because this doesn't happen between young people in illeberal social systems. 

[floo]

Hi everyone,

Here is a news item about a school ritual....turned into a rape case.

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/in-st-pauls-rape-trial-girl-vividly-recounts-night-of-school-ritual-1209104?pfrom=home-lateststories

**************************************************************************

It was just days from graduation last year, the season of a campus rite called the "senior salute," when older students ask younger ones to join them for a walk, a kiss, or more.

The girl was 15 and a freshman at the time. She had agreed to follow a suitor, Owen Labrie, then 18, to the roof of a campus building to which he had a key.

Then, she said, he took her into a dark maintenance room. When they kissed, she did not object. But soon he began to grope her; he bit her chest too, she said, and tried more than once to remove her underwear.

"I said, 'No, no, no, keep it up here,'" said the girl, signaling above her waist. "I tried to be as polite as possible."

Her voice shook as she described the encounter escalating. "I wanted to not cause a conflict," she said. It began to hurt, she said, but she did not know what to do: "I felt like I was frozen."

In graphic detail, with a mix of poise, sorrow and anger, she accused Labrie of violating her trust and her body, while noting that even as what she described as the assault was happening, she worried about offending him or drawing ridicule from other students at St. Paul's.

The two messaged each other after the encounter, and Labrie wrote that he wore a condom during part of it. She nevertheless went to a school medical facility for emergency contraception, she said, and, when asked if she had had a consensual sexual encounter, she said yes. "It was so much easier," she said, noting that at the time she was running late to save her parents seats for her sister's graduation ceremony. She added, "It's been really hard to stand up."

**************************************************************************

Who/what is wrong here? 

The boy... who did more than he was 'allowed' by the girl?

The girl...for allowing the boy to do things that he could not perhaps control later?

The school.... for allowing such 'rituals'?

The liberal social system... that permits such situations among teens in the first place?

Any views?

Sriram

Rape is always WRONG!

[Hope]

The obvious wrong-doer was the lad.  However, in view of the fact that a school, and hence society has a duty of care to its young people, they too could be regarded as being party to the crime - as, the school especially, seems from the report to be fully aware of this ritual.

The one person who cannot be blamed is the lass herself, unless you're someone who believes that putting oneself in the way of danger is blameworthy.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

We have not yet heard his side of the story.

Thirty years ago I was present at a court hearing for an "ouster" injunction where the wife complained that her husband was having sex with their daughter. The injunction was granted for a short time up until the full hearing a few days later.

At the hearing the husband tiold his side of the story. Yes, he was having sex with the daughter BUT

1. She was not his natural daughter, she was his step daughter.
2. The sex was consensual.
3. The step daughter was nineteen years old.

The daughter appeared in court & confirmed the fathers story. He was having an affair with his adult step daughter, arguably morally wrong but not illegal.

That is why details of cases are sometimes kept from the public until the end of the court proceedings.

[Rhiannon]

In the case you describe, Humph, a deciding factor would be the age of the girl when her stepfather appeared on the scene. If she grew up with him as her mother's partner then that is abuse, even if she were nineteen by the time she had sex with him. He could have been grooming her for years.

[Outrider]

On the presumption that her account is accurate - him, all the way.

She said no, he carried on. Open and shut case.

O.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Sriram and his editing. Obviously something stinks here because yesterday I think it was, this girls emails to her accused attacker were read and shown in court. So the next day, after what she is calling a rape, the girl is emailing with this monster and laughing about losing her favourite earrings while they were skronking. Or whatever they were doing.

[Harrowby Hall]

This incident took place in New Hampshire. The age of consent in that state is 16.

However, in New Hampshire there is a "Romeo and Juliet" law. A person may engage in penetrative sex with someone aged 13 or over providing the age difference is not greater than 3 years. This provision (which I don't think exists in English Law) is clearly the basis for the defence being offered by the boy.

She, apparently, was prepared to allow him to fondle her breasts, but asked him not not to remove her knickers (I assume that that is what is meant by "underwear"). Even if it was perceived that there was an original consent, the removal of that consent means that rape has now taken place.

I see no blame attaching to the girl. She may have been compliant in the first place, but she changed her mind.

Why did the school allow access to the roof? Surely it could not be considered to be a "safe" place. Was it already established as "out of bounds" but this frequently ignored by students? I don't think that the school was complicit in the rape, but there was possibly a seperate failure to provide a safe environment for students.

[Udayana]

Seems a straightforward case of rape. No doubt the girl behaved stupidly, probably not properly educated to deal with such situations, and there might be a question of negligence regarding the school, but none of that excuses the boys actions, on the basis of the facts in the OP.

[OH MY WORLD!]

If she was raped, if she was violated, that explains her good humoured joking around emails to the rapist after this supposed rape.

[Outrider]

If she was raped, if she was violated, that explains her good humoured joking around emails to the rapist after this supposed rape.

Because denial never happens, right? It's only a 'proper' rape if you have sufficient bruising?

O.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Because a 15 year old girl can't regret what she did and lie to her mother right?

[Udayana]

Doesn't say anything about jokey e-mails in the details we are given above. She does sound fairly feeble minded though and easily manipulated.

[Outrider]

Because a 15 year old girl can't regret what she did and lie to her mother right?

That's also possible - I did say that I didn't immediately accept her story. However, the lack of bruising or visible signs of a struggle, and the lack of any outward fear in the immediate aftermath are not reliable indicators that nothing of note has happened.

O.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Losing your virginity is a big deal. And only a fool would think a 15 year old can't fib to mommy about how it really went down. So what makes the girl the truth teller and the guy is the liar? There were only two people present. I do recall a recent case of a woman accusing a bunch of college guys of rape. She was a blatant liar and Rolling Stones got conned. It is up to the girl's lawyers to prove her accusation to be true and her emails are not helping them with that. The jury will have all the evidence from both sides and hopefully see through any lies being told.

[Outrider]

Losing your virginity is a big deal. And only a fool would think a 15 year old can't fib to mommy about how it really went down. So what makes the girl the truth teller and the guy is the liar? There were only two people present. I do recall a recent case of a woman accusing a bunch of college guys of rape. She was a blatant liar and Rolling Stones got conned. It is up to the girl's lawyers to prove her accusation to be true and her emails are not helping them with that. The jury will have all the evidence from both sides and hopefully see through any lies being told.

Pretty much no-one is saying the girl's story is watertight, that's why the majority of people on the thread have qualified their commentary with something to the effect of 'presuming the story's right'.

The number of rape convictions is horrendously low in developed countries. The number of cases of proven deceit from the accusers is even lower, yet it's massively over-represented in the reporting, leading to the sort of cynicism that contributes to horrendously low conviction rates.

O.

[OH MY WORLD!]

The conviction rate is over 50% in the USA. And I was replying to Udayana's conclusion that it is a straight case of rape. And as far as the emails about her joking with the accused about her lost earrings. That was presented to the court on a big easel which I read for myself because it was broadcast on TV yesterday.

[OH MY WORLD!]

For Udayana,

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/teen-sobs-testifies-concord-n-h-prep-school-rape-case-article-1.2330096

[Udayana]

Maybe, but the US has police investigators, lawyers, courts and everything needed to resolve the case, I'm sure they can come to a just conclusion. It's not my job to go off hunting for evidence or proof.

My opinion is just based on the evidence I have been told about - similar to the jury's job in court. With more background information and being able to see and hear all the witnesses and evidence  they should be able to determine the facts of the matter.

Even if it turns out that the girl is making the accusation because of regrets after consensual sex, she was still underage. And the school needs to put in safeguards against such situations in the future, and probably beef up its sex education lessons.

[OH MY WORLD!]

You mean the evidence Sriram gave you? You should be watching the evidence provided in court before stating it's a clear case of rape. And yes, 15 year old teens should not be skronking. And an 18 year old should go to jail for having sex with a 15 year old, consensual or not.

[Udayana]

Agreed, though it's only my superficial opinion, not a final judgement!

[Outrider]

The conviction rate is over 50% in the USA.

The rape conviction rate in the US is about 2-3%. The conviction rate of cases that actually get to court is over 50%, but that's because the lawyers know the kind of reception their clients and testimony is likely to get and don't take the majority of cases they get to court in the first place. That's, of course, of the minority of cases that are ever reported in the first place.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

O.

[Harrowby Hall]

You mean the evidence Sriram gave you? You should be watching the evidence provided in court before stating it's a clear case of rape. And yes, 15 year old teens should not be skronking. And an 18 year old should go to jail for having sex with a 15 year old, consensual or not.

Johnny

In some states of the USA it is legal for a 15 year old girl to have consensual sex with an 18 year old. New Hampshire is one of these states. In fact, in New Hampshire, a 13 year old girl can legally have sex with a 16 year old.

The laws are called Romeo and Juliet laws. Isn't that romantic?