Most People Think Their Lives Are Alright

[Udayana]

Sue, but after that does collecting bananas have any meaning? I don't think it can.

[Shaker]

Sue, but after that does collecting bananas have any meaning? I don't think it can.

As I am wont to say, ultimate meaning? No. But I think those who chase such things are chasing shadows. Proximate meaning, sure.

Camus famously concluded The Myth of Sisyphus by saying that we should think of Sisyphus as happy if his endless rolling of the massive rock up the hill, then trudging down to the bottom to roll it up the hill all over again, can be imbued with meaning for Sisyphus, not anybody else observing him. If Sisyphus can find a meaning in it for himself, then it has meaning to that extent. I agree.

[Rhiannon]

Alas it isn't just their problem, because history shows that when people become so utterly, rigidly, unshakeably convinced of the absolute rightness of their meaning, be it Catholicism, fascism, Stalinism or similar, they tend to want to impose that meaning on others.

Frankl decided he was free from Naziism and anti-semitism from within a concentration camp. I might not have his resolve of character but I've fought so hard to be free, I'm not about to let others take my right to choose away from me, and right now I choose not to give a jack about the stupidity of those who think they have all the answers.

[Shaker]

Quite!

[Keith Maitland]

The value is remembering how hurtful events in life are so one is more aware of the suffering that is out there. It will happen again and again and again.

But, it seems like it won't be so bad due to the Pollyanna Principle.

[Shaker]

You've been reading David Benatar - am I right, Keith?

[Nearly Sane]

Can we get any justification why one subjective evaluation is more correct than another subjective evaluation from Keith?

[torridon]

The Pollyanna Principal is the tendency for individuals to remember previous pleasure as being much more significant than previous pain.

This seems broadly right to me, and it operates on many levels.  I always remember my rugby master at school telling us that the body forgets pain; if it were not the case, boxers wouldn't box, women would never have a second child. We are masters at self deception, we tend to think we are better looking than we really are; we think we are better drivers than we really are. We develop multifarious ways to avoid facing up to unpallatable realities. We organise news bulletins to finish with sport and weather, so that no matter how awful the news, the final word is always on something light, the sugar after the pill, and the world is alright again.

[Rhiannon]

Hardly. News and weather are relatively trivial. Especially England cricket. Something would be very wrong with news that opened with them.

I have been in extreme physical pain that drove me almost insane - literally, it was this that tipped the balance with my anxiety and landed me in hospital. I only wish that I could forget how that felt; instead I'm now hypersensitive to pain and have to talk myself down every time I get so much as a sore throat. I can't even begin to explain how annoying it is.

[ekim]

The value is remembering how hurtful events in life are so one is more aware of the suffering that is out there. It will happen again and again and again.

But, it seems like it won't be so bad due to the Pollyanna Principle.

Another way of looking at it is that physical pain demonstrates the boundaries of our physical body.  It is quite likely that we all have different pain thresholds ranging from the highly sensitive to insensitive.  Some people attempt to challenge their pain threshold by indulging in painful pursuits etc.

As regards 'mental' pain or fear, it is likely that the more you dwell upon it the more you will experience it, just as the more you chase after pleasure the more you are likely to experience it. Both tend to take you away from experiencing the present as the former seems to be past oriented and the latter future oriented.  I don't know what the Pollyanna Principle is but perhaps it is associated with focusing more upon what is present rather than what is absent.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, that makes sense. The thing with news media for example is that there's usually very little featured on it that we have any control over. We can either worry about it or let it go, and I suspect our ability to do that depends on our past experiences of trauma and loss - I know it is for me.

But neither the past experience nor imagined fearful future are here now. What is present is me, loved ones, sofa, TV. That isn't Pollyanna-ish,  just reality, but if we live too much in the past or future we lose the magic of the extraordinary ordinary going on around us.

[ekim]

Yes, that makes sense. The thing with news media for example is that there's usually very little featured on it that we have any control over. We can either worry about it or let it go, and I suspect our ability to do that depends on our past experiences of trauma and loss - I know it is for me.

But neither the past experience nor imagined fearful future are here now. What is present is me, loved ones, sofa, TV. That isn't Pollyanna-ish,  just reality, but if we live too much in the past or future we lose the magic of the extraordinary ordinary going on around us.

Yes, it's as if the mass media is dedicated to creating an addiction to misery and cameras are almost compelled to linger until people can't hold back their tears.  It was a bit different during the last war, when there was just cinema and radio.  The broadcasts were more focused upon optimism, morale boosting and happy endings.  Nowadays they seem to be playing the 'Ain't it awful' game.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, that makes sense. The thing with news media for example is that there's usually very little featured on it that we have any control over. We can either worry about it or let it go, and I suspect our ability to do that depends on our past experiences of trauma and loss - I know it is for me.

But neither the past experience nor imagined fearful future are here now. What is present is me, loved ones, sofa, TV. That isn't Pollyanna-ish,  just reality, but if we live too much in the past or future we lose the magic of the extraordinary ordinary going on around us.

Yes, it's as if the mass media is dedicated to creating an addiction to misery and cameras are almost compelled to linger until people can't hold back their tears.  It was a bit different during the last war, when there was just cinema and radio.  The broadcasts were more focused upon optimism, morale boosting and happy endings.  Nowadays they seem to be playing the 'Ain't it awful' game.

They are addicted to getting viewers. For whatever reason the more extreme the reporting, the more they get. The story is always the worst case scenario. Perhaps it is because viewers are no longer so adept at telling fact from Hollywood fiction.

[ekim]

Some people are never happy unless they can find something to be miserable about"
What's worse is they have to keep justifying it.
 

Some time ago I had some radiotherapy treatment which at the time destroyed my ability to taste anything except for bitterness.  I found myself gravitating towards foods with bitterness in them, no matter how subtle, because that was better than tasting nothing.  I sometimes wonder if there is a psychological equivalent i.e. it's better to feel bitterness or misery or emotional pain in one's life than feel nothing and such people gravitate towards it.

[Sriram]

Some people are never happy unless they can find something to be miserable about"
What's worse is they have to keep justifying it.
 

Some time ago I had some radiotherapy treatment which at the time destroyed my ability to taste anything except for bitterness.  I found myself gravitating towards foods with bitterness in them, no matter how subtle, because that was better than tasting nothing.  I sometimes wonder if there is a psychological equivalent i.e. it's better to feel bitterness or misery or emotional pain in one's life than feel nothing and such people gravitate towards it.

Yes...I think so. The human ego craves sense experience and emotional content. If positive is not available then..... negative will do.

[Rhiannon]

Some people are never happy unless they can find something to be miserable about"
What's worse is they have to keep justifying it.
 

Some time ago I had some radiotherapy treatment which at the time destroyed my ability to taste anything except for bitterness.  I found myself gravitating towards foods with bitterness in them, no matter how subtle, because that was better than tasting nothing.  I sometimes wonder if there is a psychological equivalent i.e. it's better to feel bitterness or misery or emotional pain in one's life than feel nothing and such people gravitate towards it.

Yes...I think so. The human ego craves sense experience and emotional content. If positive is not available then..... negative will do.

This is one of the cornerstones of transactional analysis - we seek 'strokes' through our transactions with others and the world in general and if we can't get pleasurable ones then we will seek negative ones as better than nothing. It's why we tend to unconsciously repeat negative patterns in relationships (personal, work, family) until we notice and can decide to do things differently.

There is also a theory that we become more inclined to negative ideas about life and the future because we are getting closer to life's end and it is less painful if we think we are leaving something that isn't as good as when we arrived.

I'm not sure I link depression with the kind of pessimism that is associated with revelling in negative views of news and the future. Quite a lot of people seem to really enjoy the misery, especially if it isn't theirs. There's a trend in a certain kind of magazine aimed at women that always feature horrific real life stories of rape or child bereavement on the front cover and it baffles me completely. And of course child abuse memoirs have become extremely popular. 

[Shaker]

Adam Phillips, who knows a thing or two, once wrote an article in which he stated that you just have to accept the fact that some people enjoy being miserable and can't really function unless they are - happiness, to them, is like buying a set of socket spanners for your granny; something they didn't ask for and really don't know what to do with.

[floo]

Adam Phillips, who knows a thing or two, once wrote an article in which he stated that you just have to accept the fact that some people enjoy being miserable and can't really function unless they are - happiness, to them, is like buying a set of socket spanners for your granny; something they didn't ask for and really don't know what to do with.

Hey some grannies might be pleased to have a set of socket spanners!

[Udayana]

One might as well try everything whilst there's a chance? What's wrong with misery?

[Sriram]

Some people are never happy unless they can find something to be miserable about"
What's worse is they have to keep justifying it.
 

Some time ago I had some radiotherapy treatment which at the time destroyed my ability to taste anything except for bitterness.  I found myself gravitating towards foods with bitterness in them, no matter how subtle, because that was better than tasting nothing.  I sometimes wonder if there is a psychological equivalent i.e. it's better to feel bitterness or misery or emotional pain in one's life than feel nothing and such people gravitate towards it.

Yes...I think so. The human ego craves sense experience and emotional content. If positive is not available then..... negative will do.

This fixation and addiction to sense experience is what is regarded as 'sin'. The more the fixation the more the possibility of excessive indulgence.

The idea of salvation is to free oneself from this need for sensory experience.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Be very careful if you try and do an honourable thing like befriending a miserable person. Most often they're crafty and will try and make you as miserable as they are.

"People talk about the courage of condemned men walking to the place of execution: sometimes it needs as much courage to walk with any kind of bearing towards another persons habitual misery."   Graham Greene

[Rhiannon]

I'm not sure 'crafty' is quite the right word, but I think some habitually pessimistic and unhappy people find a kind of perverse reassurance in persuading others to see things as they do.

[OH MY WORLD!]

They can be crafty, very crafty. Their aim is to get you as miserable as they and you are the clueless one and wind up miserable after every visit with them. They know exactly what they are doing. Don't sell them short Rhi.

Crafty-clever at getting the results you want. That's a perfect description for many of them Rhi.

[Outrider]

They can be crafty, very crafty. Their aim is to get you as miserable as they and you are the clueless one and wind up miserable after every visit with them. They know exactly what they are doing. Don't sell them short Rhi.

Crafty-clever at getting the results you want. That's a perfect description for many of them Rhi.

Their aim is to feel better. The fact that they do this by putting a burden on you to be their support mechanism isn't intentional or malicious, despite the deleterious effects it can have.

Yes, you need to be careful, and you need to share that burden with others if you can, but to ascribe malice to their intentions is hardly a charitable view of people already in a bad situation.

O.

[trippymonkey]

For interest's sake, how do we gauge or just KNOW what happiness exactly is ?!?!!?