Most People Think Their Lives Are Alright

[Udayana]

No doubt whatever it is, it is bound to be only an illusion anyway!

If you can make yourself happy by making others miserable, can you make others happy by being miserable? Keith always manages to cheer me up A bit like listening to Lou Reed and the early Velvets.

[ekim]

For interest's sake, how do we gauge or just KNOW what happiness exactly is ?!?!!?

Perhaps 'happiness' is that which satisfies a desire, and 'joy' is that which satisfies all desires and the individual becomes desire-less.

[Udayana]

Isn't that the same as being dead?

[ekim]

Isn't that the same as being dead?

No, it is more like having life more abundantly, being fulfilled and expressing that joy from within .... outwardly, rather than seeking pleasure from outside and bringing it in as temporary happiness.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Outrider,
Obviously you didn't get that I am talking about those that love their misery, not those that want relief. Ever hear about misery loving company?

[Jack Knave]

Isn't that the same as being dead?

The only thing that is like being dead is sleep. The only difference is that you wake up after sleep where as after death.....

[Jack Knave]

The problem with these kinds of threads and ideas is that two people can go through similar experiences and view the events differently depending on their character and disposition. It is this and how one feels within one's mind that sets the tone of things.

[Udayana]

True enough, hence NS's unanswered questions to Keith about the validity of comparing subjective judgments.

[Jack Knave]

True enough, hence NS's unanswered questions to Keith about the validity of comparing subjective judgments.

People want answers from Keith? There's a wish that wont be granted!!!

[trippymonkey]

Can we experience happiness if we don't have its 'opposite'
ie Would there be black if there wasn't white

[torridon]

That's why heaven cannot exist.

Robbed of all context, it becomes a meaningless place

[trippymonkey]

Heaven has LOTS of context, no ?
In many way the opposite of earth ?!!??

[ekim]

Can we experience happiness if we don't have its 'opposite'
ie Would there be black if there wasn't white

From the Tao Te Ching
When beauty is defined, ugliness is born;
When goodness is evaluated, evil is there to oppose it;
Being and Existence generate each other;
Heavy and light weigh each other;                  
Long and short define each other;
High and low are relative to each other;
Past and future flow into each other.

Therefore the Wise act from inner stillness ,
Teach without explanations,
Are available to all and reject none,
Produce results but lay claim to nothing,
Seek no credit, and on completion are not attached to the outcome,
Through non attachment they maintain oneness.

[trippymonkey]

Marvellous answer.
PERFECT !!!!

Thanks !!

[Outrider]

Outrider,
Obviously you didn't get that I am talking about those that love their misery, not those that want relief. Ever hear about misery loving company?

I've heard the aphorism, yes. I still don't presume any malice - it may well be the effect, but that doesn't mean it was the intention.

O.

[Rhiannon]

Can we experience happiness if we don't have its 'opposite'
ie Would there be black if there wasn't white

In paganism too (at least the kind I follow) we accept that dark is needed alongside light for balance. Life has its dark times as an inevitability and there are deities and myths that guide us through - if you take the famous myth of Persephone as an example, yes, she has to enter the darkness of the underworld, but it is to emerge renewed and stronger.

And the dark isn't to be feared. It isn't true that suffering doesn't happen in the light - it can and does - but the dark can be a refuge from the harshness of the light - we sleep better in the dark - and it is a place of dreaming and imagination.

[Rhiannon]

Outrider,
Obviously you didn't get that I am talking about those that love their misery, not those that want relief. Ever hear about misery loving company?

I've heard the aphorism, yes. I still don't presume any malice - it may well be the effect, but that doesn't mean it was the intention.

O.

There are some people who seem to revel in misery. Years ago when I was in my teens I lived near a high rise and an acquaintance of mine met with unbearable tragedy when living there - her toddler son fell from the window and died. I was in the local newspaper shop when another woman from the same block of flats came in waving the local newspaper. 'I knew it!' she said gleefully. 'She pushed him out! Look it says here, police are investigating!' I've never quite got over the enjoyment she took in thinking that this poor woman had murdered her little boy. (He'd fallen from an open window next to a kitchen worktop when she went to answer the door).

[Jack Knave]

Can we experience happiness if we don't have its 'opposite'
ie Would there be black if there wasn't white

From the Tao Te Ching
When beauty is defined, ugliness is born;
When goodness is evaluated, evil is there to oppose it;
Being and Existence generate each other;
Heavy and light weigh each other;                  
Long and short define each other;
High and low are relative to each other;
Past and future flow into each other.

Therefore the Wise act from inner stillness ,
Teach without explanations,
Are available to all and reject none,
Produce results but lay claim to nothing,
Seek no credit, and on completion are not attached to the outcome,
Through non attachment they maintain oneness.

So true love is true hate?

[trippymonkey]

The stronger you feel for someone the more their moods can affect you !!

Remember how we sometimes say,' oh I don't give a ++++ about him/her so nothing they do bothers you in any way???

[ekim]

Can we experience happiness if we don't have its 'opposite'
ie Would there be black if there wasn't white

From the Tao Te Ching
When beauty is defined, ugliness is born;
When goodness is evaluated, evil is there to oppose it;
Being and Existence generate each other;
Heavy and light weigh each other;                  
Long and short define each other;
High and low are relative to each other;
Past and future flow into each other.

Therefore the Wise act from inner stillness ,
Teach without explanations,
Are available to all and reject none,
Produce results but lay claim to nothing,
Seek no credit, and on completion are not attached to the outcome,
Through non attachment they maintain oneness.

So true love is true hate?

I think that part of the idea expressed in the TTC is that the mind produces relative concepts e.g. if there is good then there is evil, if there is beauty then there is ugliness, if there is love there is hate.  The 'Wise' transcend this mind forged duality through inner stillness, to a point of balance and harmony and act/not act from there.

[Outrider]

I think that part of the idea expressed in the TTC is that the mind produces relative concepts e.g. if there is good then there is evil, if there is beauty then there is ugliness, if there is love there is hate.  The 'Wise' transcend this mind forged duality through inner stillness, to a point of balance and harmony and act/not act from there.

Except that the idea of balance doesn't inextricably remove the idea of duality, it just advocates against extremism.

The way to avoid falling into a modal duality is work on exercises like antonyms: bravery is the opposite of both cowardice and wisdom, depending on the context. There are no dualities, all behaviours are a delicate path between multiple influences.

O.

[ekim]

I think that part of the idea expressed in the TTC is that the mind produces relative concepts e.g. if there is good then there is evil, if there is beauty then there is ugliness, if there is love there is hate.  The 'Wise' transcend this mind forged duality through inner stillness, to a point of balance and harmony and act/not act from there.

Except that the idea of balance doesn't inextricably remove the idea of duality, it just advocates against extremism.

The way to avoid falling into a modal duality is work on exercises like antonyms: bravery is the opposite of both cowardice and wisdom, depending on the context. There are no dualities, all behaviours are a delicate path between multiple influences.

O.

I don't think the Taoist verse attempts to remove the idea of duality but more to act/not act more spontaneously and consciously in harmony with any prevailing forces.  I believe Taoism has an element of duality within it as expressed by the Taichitu symbol of Yin and Yang.  Rather than seeing them as opposing forces and being judgemental about them, it sees them as complementary.  I doubt whether it would advocate 'antonym exercises' as Taoism tends towards stilling the mind rather than agitating it, but if it works for some, why not.

[Jack Knave]

Can we experience happiness if we don't have its 'opposite'
ie Would there be black if there wasn't white

From the Tao Te Ching
When beauty is defined, ugliness is born;
When goodness is evaluated, evil is there to oppose it;
Being and Existence generate each other;
Heavy and light weigh each other;                  
Long and short define each other;
High and low are relative to each other;
Past and future flow into each other.

Therefore the Wise act from inner stillness ,
Teach without explanations,
Are available to all and reject none,
Produce results but lay claim to nothing,
Seek no credit, and on completion are not attached to the outcome,
Through non attachment they maintain oneness.

So true love is true hate?

I think that part of the idea expressed in the TTC is that the mind produces relative concepts e.g. if there is good then there is evil, if there is beauty then there is ugliness, if there is love there is hate.  The 'Wise' transcend this mind forged duality through inner stillness, to a point of balance and harmony and act/not act from there.

In creating something a polarization is also created. So if love is created then also not-love is also formed by the judgement of what love is. If something doesn't fit into that criteria of love then it is not-love i.e. what we generally call hate. To transcend this case one has to embrace both but this takes a lot of effort and energy.