A war on gay persons still at school

[Nearly Sane]

Deep breaths, CMG, this is really not a thread for you given the medical advice. Hope you are getting better.

[Outrider]

Fundamentally, the issue doesn't lie with the parents who (mistakenly, in my opinion) believe that a Christian education is best for their - and by implication all - children.

It doesn't even lie with the Churches which, in the modern era, are voluntary.

The fault lies with national (or, in the US, state) authorities who allow children to be inducted into schools according to their parents religious choices, who allow institutions to teach religion rather than enforcing that they teach about religions.

Churches have no vested interest in supporting secularism if it's their religion that's being favoured, or if it's religion over non-religion as is the case in the UK. It's for government to ensure that children are raised on an even field.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Where I live I get a lot of events that pass by, or block the streets. There are sporting events, protests, festivals. The most common is Orange walks, of which probably twenty weekends some roads around me will be blocked off. I watch these with apprehension and pity. Apprehension because of the outcome of their drunken followers fighting or randomly pishing in the street or doorways. Pity because of the sight of kids in prams holding the can of Super Lager while their parents dance about singing about history and hatred they do not understand.

On Saturday it was Pride, the music was better, the people happier, the event welcoming. No attempts to beat you up if you try to cross the road, just smiles and dancing.


One of these is the future, and one locked inexorably with past hatreds that end with much internalised violence. I do not say that there are those on here who march to the beat of that outdated drummer, but with the casual hatred of the active homosexuality is like X, y, z crime they tap their feet to that beat.

[Rhiannon]

I haven't grown up with sectarianism, but I did once drive into the London Pride march by mistake and I have never felt safer in a huge crowd in my life.

My former parish priest told a great story about a wedding he conducted where one of the bride's attendants was a gay man, kitted out in pink morning suit. Being an Anglo-Catholic the pp tried to persuade him to take off his top hat in church, but the man refused as it would spoil his look, so in the end my old pp told him he looked so good he wasn't going to argue any more and left him to it. 

[Leonard James]

I haven't grown up with sectarianism, but I did once drive into the London Pride march by mistake and I have never felt safer in a huge crowd in my life.

My former parish priest told a great story about a wedding he conducted where one of the bride's attendants was a gay man, kitted out in pink morning suit. Being an Anglo-Catholic the pp tried to persuade him to take off his top hat in church, but the man refused as it would spoil his look, so in the end my old pp told him he looked so good he wasn't going to argue any more and left him to it. 

Wisdom will out! 

[Anchorman]

I haven't grown up with sectarianism, but I did once drive into the London Pride march by mistake and I have never felt safer in a huge crowd in my life.

My former parish priest told a great story about a wedding he conducted where one of the bride's attendants was a gay man, kitted out in pink morning suit. Being an Anglo-Catholic the pp tried to persuade him to take off his top hat in church, but the man refused as it would spoil his look, so in the end my old pp told him he looked so good he wasn't going to argue any more and left him to it. 

Wisdom will out! 

-
Wisdom might well out, Len, but, surely this was an act of disrespect to the building and faith of the  priest?
After all, I wouldn't demand a pork pie in a Bar Mitzvah (and I'm glad to say I've attended several).
Nor will I be putting the Christian concept of Christian marriage to the couple whose gay wedding I'll be attending in November.

[Leonard James]

Wisdom might well out, Len, but, surely this was an act of disrespect to the building and faith of the  priest?

My opinion is that people are more important then buildings or faiths.

After all, I wouldn't demand a pork pie in a Bar Mitzvah (and I'm glad to say I've attended several).
Nor will I be putting the Christian concept of Christian marriage to the couple whose gay wedding I'll be attending in November.

That is because you consider the people there more important than your likes or beliefs.

[Nearly Sane]

I think attending a wedding and refusing to deal with the customs, where they are not objectionable, in which case don't go, makes you an utter arse, no matter how great you look.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Well we know this, bullies are not gay friendly. In my jr high school the bullies would go around suggesting their targets were gay. They would make school a complete and living hell with their suggestions that their targets were gay. Where are those bullied guys and gals today? I hope they are happy. And dearest Matty, it was when I opted to go to a CHRISTIAN high school, that I realized that school could be interesting with out all that nasty drama that bullies bring to the classroom.
Yes Matty, your English schools harbour the worst anti gay bullies in Europe.

[OH MY WORLD!]

And Matty, I have a feeling that MOST bullying is to be found in government run schools not private Christian schools. We do know that it is severe in your government schools. Just google Matty!

[Hope]

And Matty, I have a feeling that MOST bullying is to be found in government run schools not private Christian schools. We do know that it is severe in your government schools. Just google Matty!

Sorry, johnny, but having been involved in a couple of faith schools, (one as a pupil, one as a parent and one as a teacher) I can confirm that bullying in state schools is no more or less prevalent than in faith schools.

[Hope]

What's the important thing: that society combats bullying, or that society combats 'gay'-bullying?

Any kind of bullying against a minority group whose behaviour is not antisocial is wrong, and must be combated.

So, you would agree with me that dealing with bullying is the most important?

[Leonard James]

And Matty, I have a feeling that MOST bullying is to be found in government run schools not private Christian schools. We do know that it is severe in your government schools. Just google Matty!

Sorry, johnny, but having been involved in a couple of faith schools, (one as a pupil, one as a parent and one as a teacher) I can confirm that bullying in state schools is no more or less prevalent than in faith schools.

How could it be? Children are children, and seldom intelligent enough to think as adults. What is important is how much control they are subject to.

[Leonard James]

What's the important thing: that society combats bullying, or that society combats 'gay'-bullying?

Any kind of bullying against a minority group whose behaviour is not antisocial is wrong, and must be combated.

So, you would agree with me that dealing with bullying is the most important?

Yes, of course, Hope, along with teaching kids the reason WHY it is most important.

[Outrider]

And Matty, I have a feeling that MOST bullying is to be found in government run schools not private Christian schools. We do know that it is severe in your government schools. Just google Matty!

In my experience of private schools most of the bullying is sanctioned and is age-based - older children put in positions of authority over younger children, which is then abused.

Here in the UK the majority of the Christian schools ARE state schools - the academy idea of letting schools run themselves free of central government authority has instead created a system whereby schools are interfered with by institutions that are not even education-oriented.

O.

[Hope]

At no point did I state or imply that gay people could not be bullies. You really should learn to read for comprehension.

Yet, what you did was pick up on the fact that homosexuals can bully, despite my pointing out the fact that it happens every which way.  I picked it out because, as far as I am aware, it was a rarity - but that it does happen.

[Rhiannon]

I think attending a wedding and refusing to deal with the customs, where they are not objectionable, in which case don't go, makes you an utter arse, no matter how great you look.

You might be right, but I thought it worth repeating because my pp told this story with tolerance and mild amusement. Not all Christians are judgemental homophobes.

[Hope]

Anyone who believes homosexuality is wrong, even if they don't go as far as bullying gays, needs to change their attitude PDQ! Being prejudiced against someone for no better reason than they are attracted to people of the same sex is WRONG, and excusing their bigotry using the not so good book is very nasty indeed!

I am entitled to believe that certain ways of behaving are wrong, Floo, in the same way that a certain William Wilberforce stuck to his guns regarding the wrongness (or sinfulness) of slavery for 20 years before the trade was banned here.

It is interesting, that there are those who believe that homosexuality who, as they are not religious, let alone Christian, do not use the Good Book to back up their beliefs; what are you going to blame for their opinions?  Then, of course, there are those Christians and other religious people who use a variety of sources including - but by no means exclusively - the Bible to back up their beliefs.  I appreciate that you see everything in black and white, but life exists in shades of grey, as well as of colours - as well as black and white.

[floo]

At no point did I state or imply that gay people could not be bullies. You really should learn to read for comprehension.

Yet, what you did was pick up on the fact that homosexuals can bully, despite my pointing out the fact that it happens every which way.  I picked it out because, as far as I am aware, it was a rarity - but that it does happen.

Hope please answer this question. Do you think homosexuality is wrong, and if so why?

[Outrider]

I am entitled to believe that certain ways of behaving are wrong, Floo, in the same way that a certain William Wilberforce stuck to his guns regarding the wrongness (or sinfulness) of slavery for 20 years before the trade was banned here.

Have you no shame? To compare your own self-confessed homophobia to the anti-slavery movement?

With your 'right' to hold an opinion comes responsibilities: the responsibility to justify it, to found on reasonable foundations. On what basis do you think that 'homosexual behaviour' is wrong? What, fundamentally, do you mean by 'homosexual behaviour', because there is no behaviour that homosexual people conduct that is not also conducted by heterosexual or bisexual people.

It is interesting, that there are those who believe that homosexuality who, as they are not religious, let alone Christian, do not use the Good Book to back up their beliefs; what are you going to blame for their opinions?

And they get the same challenge you get - why is it 'wrong'? And, like you, they are pitifully short of meaningful responses.

Then, of course, there are those Christians and other religious people who use a variety of sources including - but by no means exclusively - the Bible to back up their beliefs.  I appreciate that you see everything in black and white, but life exists in shades of grey, as well as of colours - as well as black and white.

Yet you adopt a curiously black and white absolutism to homosexuality - where is the accomodation there, where is the 'live and let live', where is the 'judge not lest ye be judged' spirit when it comes to gay people?

O.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Outrider,
Yes, well Christian schools are not state schools here in Canada. But ALL schools here in Canada must use a government approved curriculum. That means they are monitored here in my province by the government's education dept. All Christian schools must have qualified teachers. Like I said, when I left the tax supported public school for a private Christian school, I suddenly didn't have to watch the daily antics of bullies. I have no doubts that bullying is severe in government run schools compared to the privately funded Christian schools.

[Outrider]

Outrider,
Yes, well Christian schools are not state schools here in Canada. But ALL schools here in Canada must use a government approved curriculum. That means they are monitored here in my province by the government's education dept. All Christian schools must have qualified teachers. Like I said, when I left the tax supported public school for a private Christian school, I suddenly didn't have to watch the daily antics of bullies. I have no doubts that bullying is severe in government run schools compared to the privately funded Christian schools.

I've 'served time' in both, my wife teaches and I know many teachers - children bully, it's a facet of their development. They identify apparent weakness and cluster together to target it as part of some sort of intrinsic bonding ritual.

The themes of the bullying might vary, but regardless of the type of school or the denomination of the parents, it's pretty much universal across the UK - whether it continues to other nations in the same way I couldn't comment.

I'm glad you had a singular better experience when you shifted schools.

O.

[Gordon]

I am entitled to believe that certain ways of behaving are wrong, Floo, in the same way that a certain William Wilberforce stuck to his guns regarding the wrongness (or sinfulness) of slavery for 20 years before the trade was banned here.

Indeed you are, even if it is a nauseating outlook given your comparison with the abolition of slavery. Presumably then, on the same basis, you'll be campaigning for the proscription of consenting homosexual adults acting in line with their sexuality.

As I said - nauseating!

[floo]

In the bad old days some people thought being left handed was wrong and condemned those who were.

No one has a right to condemn a person for being gay, anymore than they have a right to be racist. Bigots are the deviants!

[OH MY WORLD!]

Too funny, I am not alone in my experience Outrider, I promise you that. And yes bullying can and is found in all schools but I am convinced that government tax funded schools have more of a problem. I've seen it. And I am not alone in seeing it.