Author Topic: A war on gay persons still at school  (Read 27423 times)

Outrider

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2015, 09:16:17 AM »
Free Schools are not a policy of the Scots government, Outrider, where education is devolved. Private faith schools are not (unfortunately) illegal - but the Education (Scotland) Act passed by Holyrood in March this year gives very strict criteria for their operation; criteria which must fulfil the priorities set out in the Scottish Education carriculum, or the school will. quite rightly, loose its' charitable status and licence to teach.

I've not seen much of the detail of the proposal, I'm hoping that it doesn't exempt the RE element from the National Curriculum like in England and Wales. It's not as bad as it is in Northern Ireland, of course, but it could so easily be better.

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Outrider

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2015, 09:31:15 AM »
I would suggest that homosexuals are generally more likely to have multiple partners than heterosexuals, and studies suggest that having multiple sexual partners makes one prone to mental health issues.

Surely the opportunity to form socially-validated long-term relationships - let's call it marriage - would act as a deterrent on this tendency towards multiple partners? Or, to put it another way, if people are compelled by social approbrium not to demonstrate a public affection for members of the same sex, it's difficult to maintain a long-term relationship - the social pressures against homosexuality in the (recent) past have encouraged this tendency towards multiple partners.

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There is an interesting M.Sc in Abnormal and Clinical Psychology project on Acadamia.edu in which thew author finds the following results and comes to the subsequent conclusions:

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Results:
This study found that depression, both self-reported and previously diagnosed, was associated with a variety of risky sexual behaviours including poor contraception use and having a sexually transmitted disease. Risky sexual behaviour was not found to correlate with low self-esteem; however, those of high self-esteem were significantly less likely to have risky sex. Early sexual initiation was not associated with depression but led to an increased subjective estimate of likelihood of risky sexual behaviours in the future. Males were found to be significantly more likely to engage in risky sex both with poor partner choice and infrequent use of contraception. Those of a low economic status were particularly susceptible to risky sexual behaviour.
Conclusions:
Risky sexual behaviour can have many negative consequences both in adolescence, as previous research has shown and, as this study reports, in later life. Poor contraceptive use and a poor choice of sexual partner can all severely impact mental health reducing self-esteem and increasing depression. The exact relationship between risky sexual behaviour and mental health is unclear; however, it is hoped that future longitudinal studies can improve our knowledge on this area. Education needs to be improved to reduce thenumber of sexually transmitted diseases and other risks that adolescents in particular may encounter. This can be carried out in schools and through a variety of media outlets. If thisis achieved risks to both physical and mental health can be reduced.
https://www.academia.edu/209711/Sexual_Behaviour_and_its_Mental_Health_Consequences

This does not show that 'multiple partners leads to mental health issues', it shows that they correlate. Whether that's because both are caused by some third factor (such as widespread disapproval of their nature and tendencies, say) or whether the mental health issues lead to multiple partners still needs to be established.

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Another article available on the web is entitled "Is There a Price to Pay for Promiscuity?".  It goes on to say that yes, there is - both physically and emotionally. http://www.everydayhealth.com/longevity/can-promiscuity-threaten-longevity.aspx

Except that it doesn't cite any sources and even the suggestion that promiscuity could lead to a reduced lifespan is muddied by the inclusion of promiscuity amongst a list of 'other risky behaviours such as smoking, heavy drinking, substance abuse' without any independent reason to lump them together.

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Another - available at http://tinyurl.com/qbmyvuo - states that "And yet hookups pose a significant threat to the physical and psychological health of these young individuals.

And within the article the author clearly states that it's impossible to separate biological factors from social ones - the negative effects that are reported could just as easily come from the knowledge that their activity is considered to be socially undesirable as it is from any intrinsic, 'natural' reaction. If we change social expectations we could quite conceivably remove these negative effects.

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A number of studies have investigated sexual exclusivity in homosexual relationships, particularly among gay men (e.g., Bell & Weinberg, 1978; Blasband & Peplau, 1985; Blumstein & Schwartz, 1983; Harry, 1984; Harry & DeVall, 1978; Harry & Lovely, 1979; Kurdek &  Schmitt, 1986; Peplau & Cochran, 1982; Peplau et al., 1978; McWhirter & Mattison, 1984). In general, homosexuals—especially gay men—appear to have more permissive attitudes about sexual fidelity than do heterosexuals (Peplau & Cochran, 1980). Blumstein and Schwartz (1983, p. 272) reported that for men in couples, 75% of husbands and 62% of heterosexual cohabitors believe monogamy is important, compared to only 35% of gay men. For women, 84% of wives, 70% of heterosexual cohabitors, and 71% of lesbians believe monogamy is important. For all groups except gay men, a majority endorse the virtues of sexual fidelity; among gay men, sexual exclusivity is the minority view.
This quote comes from a paper entitled "A Relationship Perspective on Homosexuality" page 338 - http://tinyurl.com/pn86rpv . I accept that it is 20-odd years old, but it highlights a number of issues that are unlikely to have changed dramatically over that period, all of which point to a greater likelihood of harm to homosexuals than to heterosexuals.[/quote]

And, again, how important are you going to consider fidelity and monogamy if the social structure of the society in which you live prevents you from partaking of it? The widespread punishment and ostracism of homosexuals has led them to create a gay culture that can hide in mainstream society, and that means not setting a solid base of activities - monogamy is difficult to hide.

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Obviously, as with ANY human interaction, one will find exceptions that run counter to the typically observed pattern, but society can't and doesn't design itself around the exception, but around the normal pattern.

But equally human activities shape themselves around the pattern of society, especially the activities of minority groups.

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I have found more recent material, but as I wanted to post material that has rigorous peer review support, I have avoided using stuff from groups such as Stonewall and Outrage!; CARM and Anglican Mainstream.

The problem isn't with what you cite, it's with the preconceptions you bring to your interpretation of what you cite.

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Rhiannon

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2015, 09:55:35 AM »
Risky sexual behaviour often leads to sex addiction and this is linked to depression and low self esteem. It is something that affects people of all sexual orientations. That elements of our society still chooses to treat gay people as second class - and tells them God doesn't want them if they love another - makes it more likely that gay people will suffer from low self esteem than if we just lived and let live.


wigginhall

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2015, 10:22:05 AM »
Yes, the irony is large, when people cite stuff about gays doing risky things, as if their own anti-gay sentiments are completely unrelated.  Of course, gays have lived in a risky world, when facing so much negativity. 

 Even the OP about bullying gay kids has been derailed!   This shows that there is still an attempt by some to invalidate gays and their experience, and to denigrate them. 
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floo

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2015, 10:32:00 AM »
Oh come on, Hope! Are you really suggesting that gay children bully the straights? You live in cloud cuckoo land.
Clearly you like to see society through rose-tinted spectacles.  I have seen just about every possible form of bullying that can take place in a school and I can confirm that gays can bully straights.  As I pointed out in the original post that I made, it doesn't happen as often as the other way round, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Remember that, unlike in our youth, when bullying was almost always face-to-face - be that physically or mentally/emotionally - it can now take place 'virtually' and from a distance, through social media and other channels.

Hope I find that very hard to believe, but then your posts are often hard to believe, I am afraid!

Owlswing

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2015, 10:33:56 AM »
It is enforcing it's rules and all students are well aware of these rules before they attend.

Nobody is disputing that the rule exists.   We are just pointing out that the rule is wrong.

Why has JC's post quoted here disappeared?

I have had this done to me where I have quoted something said to/about me and had it challenged only to find the post had been deleted so it looked as if I was making it up!

Funnily enough both deletions were by Hard-arsed Christinas.
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Shaker

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2015, 10:36:20 AM »
Why has JC's post quoted here disappeared?

I have had this done to me where I have quoted something said to/about me and had it challenged only to find the post had been deleted so it looked as if I was making it up!

Funnily enough both deletions were by Hard-arsed Christinas.
That's why I make a point of quoting posts by certain posters, to have a permanent record that can't be subsequently altered.
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Owlswing

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2015, 10:40:53 AM »
Why has JC's post quoted here disappeared?

I have had this done to me where I have quoted something said to/about me and had it challenged only to find the post had been deleted so it looked as if I was making it up!

Funnily enough both deletions were by Hard-arsed Christinas.
That's why I make a point of quoting posts by certain posters, to have a permanent record that can't be subsequently altered.

Good point - now let us see what JC's excuse/explanation for his post's disappearance - probably "God did it!"

Now off to clinic to collect my bollocking for having been on the net! Ho-hum!
 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 10:43:00 AM by CMG KCMG GCMG »
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Shaker

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #83 on: August 25, 2015, 10:55:03 AM »
Yes, the irony is large, when people cite stuff about gays doing risky things, as if their own anti-gay sentiments are completely unrelated.  Of course, gays have lived in a risky world, when facing so much negativity. 

Even the OP about bullying gay kids has been derailed!   This shows that there is still an attempt by some to invalidate gays and their experience, and to denigrate them.
Surely the vastly greater irony is that whatever can be said about gays can be said many, many, many more times about heterosexual people, yet - as we've seen with Hope - tends only to be used in reference to gays.

Nobody knows for sure exactly what the gay proportion of the population is, which is why there are so many differing figures. There are problems with definition for starters (who counts as gay?) and also reportage - in a society which still doesn't fully accept homosexuality, it's no surprise that some homosexual people are not going to want to declare themselves to be so. But you don't have to be much of a sociologist to know that straights outnumber gays by many, many times, so if for the sake of the argument we accept these studies at face value and accept that what they indicate about promiscuity is accurate (I don't; the articles themselves refer to serious and significant problems in accuracy), the much greater problem would be amongst the straight population, not the gay segment. And yet here we see it wheeled out with regard to gays.

Coincidence?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:03:34 AM by Shaker »
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Hope

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2015, 04:07:54 PM »
Even the OP about bullying gay kids has been derailed!   This shows that there is still an attempt by some to invalidate gays and their experience, and to denigrate them.
Interestingly, wiggi, the derail took place between posts #3 and #7.
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Hope

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2015, 04:10:17 PM »
Surely the vastly greater irony is that whatever can be said about gays can be said many, many, many more times about heterosexual people, yet - as we've seen with Hope - tends only to be used in reference to gays.
With the even greater irony that the very people who insist on documentary, scientifically verifiable evidence don't like it when it disagrees with their own opinion.
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floo

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2015, 04:31:19 PM »
Surely the vastly greater irony is that whatever can be said about gays can be said many, many, many more times about heterosexual people, yet - as we've seen with Hope - tends only to be used in reference to gays.
With the even greater irony that the very people who insist on documentary, scientifically verifiable evidence don't like it when it disagrees with their own opinion.

What scientifically verifiable evidence ?

Hope

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2015, 04:31:49 PM »
Surely the vastly greater irony is that whatever can be said about gays can be said many, many, many more times about heterosexual people, yet - as we've seen with Hope - tends only to be used in reference to gays.

Nobody knows for sure exactly what the gay proportion of the population is, which is why there are so many differing figures. There are problems with definition for starters (who counts as gay?) and also reportage - in a society which still doesn't fully accept homosexuality, it's no surprise that some homosexual people are not going to want to declare themselves to be so. But you don't have to be much of a sociologist to know that straights outnumber gays by many, many times, so if for the sake of the argument we accept these studies at face value and accept that what they indicate about promiscuity is accurate (I don't; the articles themselves refer to serious and significant problems in accuracy), the much greater problem would be amongst the straight population, not the gay segment. And yet here we see it wheeled out with regard to gays.

Coincidence?
The problem with this tirade is that I happen to believe that promiscuity is harmful to those who are involved in it.  So you are correct in saying that numerically the numbers are greater on the heterosexual side - but that doesn't mean that we oughtn't to be concerned about the harm that promiscuous gays are doing to themselves, especially as the proportions reported in the reports I quoted, all show proportionately higher numbers amongst homosexuals, and especially amongst gay males.  The possibility that the underlying figures regarding the number of homosexuals are wrong is of very little relevance to this debate, as they are proportionate to the known gay population, a proportion that will likely remain the same statistically regardless of the raw figure.

Furthermore, no person, gay or straight, is isolated.  He or she will have family, friends, work and hobby/sporting colleagues all of whom can be affected by any harm that the individual causes to themselves. 
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floo

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2015, 04:33:21 PM »
You are such a BIGOT, Hope! >:(

Hope

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2015, 04:38:39 PM »
What scientifically verifiable evidence ?
The articles that I quoted from reputable sources, such as www.academia.edu, Psychology Today and UCLA.
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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2015, 04:40:01 PM »
Why are we discussing the possible effects of promiscuity on a thread about homosexuality?

Gordon

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2015, 04:44:25 PM »
The problem with this tirade is that I happen to believe that promiscuity is harmful to those who are involved in it.  So you are correct in saying that numerically the numbers are greater on the heterosexual side - but that doesn't mean that we oughtn't to be concerned about the harm that promiscuous gays are doing to themselves, especially as the proportions reported in the reports I quoted, all show proportionately higher numbers amongst homosexuals, and especially amongst gay males.  The possibility that the underlying figures regarding the number of homosexuals are wrong is of very little relevance to this debate, as they are proportionate to the known gay population, a proportion that will likely remain the same statistically regardless of the raw figure.

Furthermore, no person, gay or straight, is isolated.  He or she will have family, friends, work and hobby/sporting colleagues all of whom can be affected by any harm that the individual causes to themselves.

Since when did you become the arbiter of the sexual conduct of consenting adults, Hope?

You are entitled to your opinion of course, just as others are free to disregard what you say. Perhaps you would be better to simply respect the legal choices that our fellow humans make as regards how they choose to exercise their sexuality - or, to put it more simply, mind your own business!

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2015, 05:00:56 PM »
Since when did you become the arbiter of the sexual conduct of consenting adults, Hope? ...

You are entitled to your opinion of course, just as others are free to disregard what you say. Perhaps you would be better to simply respect the legal choices that our fellow humans make as regards how they choose to exercise their sexuality - or, to put it more simply, mind your own business!
Gordon, in his post #54 Shaker questioned why behaviours that undoubtedly cause harm to people should be associated with homosexuality since, as he said, it doesn't.  I think you would agree that, as responsible citizens we are not only entitled to, but are required to warn people of the consequences of their actions.  Why this should suddenly be supressed when it comes to matters of sex, I'm not quite sure.
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Gordon

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #93 on: August 25, 2015, 05:07:02 PM »
Since when did you become the arbiter of the sexual conduct of consenting adults, Hope? ...

You are entitled to your opinion of course, just as others are free to disregard what you say. Perhaps you would be better to simply respect the legal choices that our fellow humans make as regards how they choose to exercise their sexuality - or, to put it more simply, mind your own business!
Gordon, in his post #54 Shaker questioned why behaviours that undoubtedly cause harm to people should be associated with homosexuality since, as he said, it doesn't.  I think you would agree that, as responsible citizens we are not only entitled to, but are required to warn people of the consequences of their actions.  Why this should suddenly be supressed when it comes to matters of sex, I'm not quite sure.

That depends on how you define 'harm', since it seems to me that your are largely expressing your personal disapproval - which isn't the same thing at all.

I'm not suggesting we suppress anything - be careful with all that straw.

Hope

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #94 on: August 25, 2015, 05:10:24 PM »
I don't understand this post Hope.  The article is not about bullying at schools, it's about schools (Christian schools) expelling gay children.  I suggest you read the linked article next time before putting your homophobic foot in it.
Sorry not to have responded to this earlier, jeremy.  I accept your criticism, in so far as the topic that was involved -  I did an 'ippy' on the article, and skim read it.  As soon as I read the reference to social media within the context of the article's title and that of this thread, I assumed that we were dealing with bullying, both online and in-person.  Mea culpa.  I have since reread the article properly twice and whilst I would probably challenge one or two of its rather generalised conclusions, it has valid points to make.
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Rhiannon

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2015, 05:23:15 PM »
Since when did you become the arbiter of the sexual conduct of consenting adults, Hope? ...

You are entitled to your opinion of course, just as others are free to disregard what you say. Perhaps you would be better to simply respect the legal choices that our fellow humans make as regards how they choose to exercise their sexuality - or, to put it more simply, mind your own business!
Gordon, in his post #54 Shaker questioned why behaviours that undoubtedly cause harm to people should be associated with homosexuality since, as he said, it doesn't.  I think you would agree that, as responsible citizens we are not only entitled to, but are required to warn people of the consequences of their actions.  Why this should suddenly be supressed when it comes to matters of sex, I'm not quite sure.

Hope, the research that you quoted earlier is ridiculously dated, going back as it does to a time when being out was difficult, let alone cohabiting in a gay relationship with all the problems around getting joint tenancies or mortgages that existed back then.

But let's assume that there is something in the idea that men are more likely to cheat than women. Don't you see that that means lesbians have the most stable relationships?

floo

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2015, 05:25:37 PM »
Hope comes over as so prejudiced he only sees what he wants to see! ::)

Shaker

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2015, 05:50:33 PM »
With the even greater irony that the very people who insist on documentary, scientifically verifiable evidence don't like it when it disagrees with their own opinion.
This is merely a dodge (and a pathetic one one at that) which doesn't even attempt to address the point I made. Whete was your "documentary, scientifically verifiable evidence" when it comes to the orders-of-magnitude greater number of straights, instead of being pulled out and dusted off when a thread concerns gays? Just a sheer coincidence, Hopeless?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 05:59:25 PM by Shaker »
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Owlswing

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #98 on: August 25, 2015, 05:50:40 PM »
Even the OP about bullying gay kids has been derailed!   This shows that there is still an attempt by some to invalidate gays and their experience, and to denigrate them.
Interestingly, wiggi, the derail took place between posts #3 and #7.

Hope - the derail happened in POST 2 - YOURS - and you well know it and you have tried to continue the derail in every single post you have made since then!
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jeremyp

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Re: A war on gay persons still at school
« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2015, 05:55:57 PM »
It is enforcing it's rules and all students are well aware of these rules before they attend.

Nobody is disputing that the rule exists.   We are just pointing out that the rule is wrong.

Why has JC's post quoted here disappeared?


It hasn't, it's still there.

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