Religions can be terrible!

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Religion can be terrible sometimes. We all know that.

Religions can be useless, counter productive or even plain evil.....depending on how they have evolved in different cultures and regions.... and how they emphasize and enforce different social aspects. 

However, there is no doubt that religions have been very useful and indispensable in terms of helping humans control their base instincts  and in enforcing rules and social norms.  Religions have certainly aided human development and civilization over the centuries.

In today's world, to a large extent many people have developed intellectual capabilities, self discipline and humane attitudes that make religion unnecessary ...for them.  Not that most others don't need it....but there is a sizable population across the world who perhaps don't need religion any more.

It therefore becomes all the more important that secular spirituality is introduced into different cultures in a big way. The need for separating spirituality and religion has become more necessary today than ever before. 

Those people who don't need religion, need secular spirituality to guide them in spiritual matters...so that they can go beyond the obvious material and sensory motivations. Otherwise they could fall into a vacuum.

Of course , it is already happening in countries like America in the form of Yoga, meditations and so on.  It only needs to be emphasized more.

Maybe UK needs a little more push in this direction. I was at a spiritual centre some weeks back and found lots of people from France, Germany, Brazil, Japan, China, Australia and other countries...but not one single person from UK!! 

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

[Leonard James]

Hi everyone,


Those people who don't need religion, need secular spirituality to guide them in spiritual matters...so that they can go beyond the obvious material and sensory motivations. Otherwise they could fall into a vacuum.


Sriram

Speaking from the vacuum, that statement is pretentious rot. 

[floo]

Hi everyone,


Those people who don't need religion, need secular spirituality to guide them in spiritual matters...so that they can go beyond the obvious material and sensory motivations. Otherwise they could fall into a vacuum.


Sriram

Speaking from the vacuum, that statement is pretentious rot. 

Agreed!

[Outrider]

Religion can be terrible sometimes. We all know that.

Religions codify human beliefs - humans can be terrible sometimes.

However, there is no doubt that religions have been very useful and indispensable in terms of helping humans control their base instincts  and in enforcing rules and social norms.

Controlling or justifying? Misogyny has been codified in a wide swathe of religions as they develop, enforcing rules and social norms, but not good ones.

Religions have certainly aided human development and civilization over the centuries.

Religions have hindered development - when civilisation has advanced it has been when religious organisations funded non-religious activities such as science, or when religious control was weakened. Progress comes from freedom of thought and individuals, both of which are anathemic to religion.

In today's world, to a large extent many people have developed intellectual capabilities, self discipline and humane attitudes that make religion unnecessary ...for them.  Not that most others don't need it....but there is a sizable population across the world who perhaps don't need religion any more.

Nobody 'needs' religion, in the main they turn to religion because of cultural pressure and a lack of awareness of alternatives.

It therefore becomes all the more important that secular spirituality is introduced into different cultures in a big way. The need for separating spirituality and religion has become more necessary today than ever before.

Except that 'spirituality' is as meaningless a term as 'god'.

Those people who don't need religion, need secular spirituality to guide them in spiritual matters...so that they can go beyond the obvious material and sensory motivations. Otherwise they could fall into a vacuum.

What 'spiritual matters'? What reason do you have to think that there is anything that is beyond 'material and sensory'?

Maybe UK needs a little more push in this direction. I was at a spiritual centre some weeks back and found lots of people from France, Germany, Brazil, Japan, China, Australia and other countries...but not one single person from UK!!

Good to know we're doing something right.

O.

[Rhiannon]

Yoga, meditation and eastern thought is so well established here in the UK that you don't need to travel to India to find a decent retreat centre. I buy Yoga magazine from my local newsagents and have a choice of several different styles of yoga class within a few miles drive of my little rural village. I can also attend the Buddhist retreat centre that is a three mile drive away, or go to classes in mindfulness in the Jon Kabat Zinn style in town. I don't even need to head for London - it's all on my doorstep.

[Shaker]

However, there is no doubt that religions have been very useful and indispensable in terms of helping humans control their base instincts 

Seems to me that to a very large degree religions have been the ones defining certains as instincts as "base," so the point is circular.

[Rhiannon]

However, there is no doubt that religions have been very useful and indispensable in terms of helping humans control their base instincts 

Seems to me that to a very large degree religions have been the ones defining certains as instincts as "base," so the point is circular.

Yes, I would define certain things (judging others, lack of compassion, the need for power and influence) as 'base' and other things (enjoying good food, good wine and company; sex) as not base. Yet religions often do it the other way round.

[Harrowby Hall]

Those people who don't need religion, need secular spirituality to guide them in spiritual matters...so that they can go beyond the obvious material and sensory motivations. Otherwise they could fall into a vacuum.

Did you make this up yourself? Or do you employ someone to do it for you?

[Rhiannon]

I don't think that anyone would deny the benefits of meditation in particular, but also yoga. The problem is that dressing them up with moralising and veiled imaginary threats of what happens if we don't adopt them doesn't exactly make them attractive to people.

[Sriram]

I don't think that anyone would deny the benefits of meditation in particular, but also yoga. The problem is that dressing them up with moralising and veiled imaginary threats of what happens if we don't adopt them doesn't exactly make them attractive to people.

Yoga and meditations are relatively secular methods and I am not sure what veiled threats you are referring to.  These systems do come with their do's and don't...and they do discourage excessive indulgences of all kinds.   Is that what you mean by moralising?

[Rhiannon]

I don't think that anyone would deny the benefits of meditation in particular, but also yoga. The problem is that dressing them up with moralising and veiled imaginary threats of what happens if we don't adopt them doesn't exactly make them attractive to people.

It's the notion that 'people could fall into a vacuum' that sounds like a veiled threat - not on your part, but it doesn't make spirituality sound very attractive, especially yo people who haven't felt the need of spirituality thus far.

I think spirituality should be focussed on balance - it needs to be grounded in the everyday and whilst too much if anything is a bad idea a balanced approach should include physical and sensory pleasure. Do you agree?


Yoga and meditations are relatively secular methods and I am not sure what veiled threats you are referring to.  These systems do come with their do's and don't...and they do discourage excessive indulgences of all kinds.   Is that what you mean by moralising?

[Sriram]

When I said that people could fall into a vacuum...it was not a veiled threat.   I know some people (even among Hindus) who have lost faith in religion, its rituals and its mythology.... but who have not yet discovered secular spirituality as an inner development.

These people are unable to come to terms with their lives and tend to lose their moorings.  They either become depressed or become hedonistic.

Some people may find science and its theories satisfying as an alternative to religion.  Most others do not.  These people need a viable and direct means to spiritual growth outside religion.  That is what I was talking about.

[Rhiannon]

When I said that people could fall into a vacuum...it was not a veiled threat.   I know some people (even among Hindus) who have lost faith in religion, its rituals and its mythology.... but who have not yet discovered secular spirituality as an inner development.

These people are unable to come to terms with their lives and tend to lose their moorings.  They either become depressed or become hedonistic.

Some people may find science and its theories satisfying as an alternative to religion.  Most others do not.  These people need a viable and direct means to spiritual growth outside religion.  That is what I was talking about.

I think that rather than saying that if people don't discover spirituality then they will suffer in some way, you'd do better to explain the benefits to things such as meditation, mindfulness and yoga -  lower blood pressure, better pain control, better mental health, and ultimately better quality of life all round. There's a lot of research to back this stuff up.

[Sriram]

When I said that people could fall into a vacuum...it was not a veiled threat.   I know some people (even among Hindus) who have lost faith in religion, its rituals and its mythology.... but who have not yet discovered secular spirituality as an inner development.

These people are unable to come to terms with their lives and tend to lose their moorings.  They either become depressed or become hedonistic.

Some people may find science and its theories satisfying as an alternative to religion.  Most others do not.  These people need a viable and direct means to spiritual growth outside religion.  That is what I was talking about.

I think that rather than saying that if people don't discover spirituality then they will suffer in some way, you'd do better to explain the benefits to things such as meditation, mindfulness and yoga -  lower blood pressure, better pain control, better mental health, and ultimately better quality of life all round. There's a lot of research to back this stuff up.

? ? ? ? ?

[Outrider]

When I said that people could fall into a vacuum...it was not a veiled threat.   I know some people (even among Hindus) who have lost faith in religion, its rituals and its mythology.... but who have not yet discovered secular spirituality as an inner development.

Not to be an arse, but if they've lost faith in religion in what way can they still be considered Hindus?

I've not 'discovered' secular spirituality, neither have the majority of atheists I know, the whole concept sounds like nonsense, and yet we're all perfectly fine.

These people are unable to come to terms with their lives and tend to lose their moorings.  They either become depressed or become hedonistic.

Perhaps there is a cultural aspect to this, where the social expectation is so predicated upon religious belief that otherwise normal activities are seen as a problem against the backdrop? I don't know, I'm merely guessing.

Some people may find science and its theories satisfying as an alternative to religion.

Science is not an alternative to religion - I don't have a moral and philosophical framework because of science, I accept the findings of science (and decline religion) because of my moral and philosophical framework.

Most others do not.

Most? Some, almost certainly, but from where do you get 'most'? What evidence is there that most atheists who do not conform to some other definition of 'spirituality' suffer negative psychological consequences?

These people need a viable and direct means to spiritual growth outside religion.  That is what I was talking about.

I'd love to know what a 'viable... means to spiritual growth' looked like, inside or outside of religion. I'd love someone to come up with a meaningful definition of 'spiritual' in the first place, but it just never happens. It's a weasel word to refute formal religion but stick with unevidenced woo rather than face up to the realities of the situation: this is what we've got.

Why anyone would feel they need something more than this astounds me, but this reality appears to be the sum of our existence. That's neither difficult to comprehend nor inherently harmful to accept.

O.

[Shaker]

Not to be an arse, but if they've lost faith in religion in what way can they still be considered Hindus?

Perhaps it's deemed to be an ethnic and cultural identity irrespective of religious belief, in the same way that Jewishness is. Most people don't regard a Jewish atheist as a contradiction in terms ... although David Silverman (big cheese of American Atheists) disagrees, admittedly.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/154532/david-silverman-atheist

I've not 'discovered' secular spirituality, neither have the majority of atheists I know, the whole concept sounds like nonsense, and yet we're all perfectly fine.

Although we have seen some pretty high-powered philosophers writing of it approvingly - the late Robert C. Solomon and Andre Conte-Sponville spring to mind.

I'd love someone to come up with a meaningful definition of 'spiritual' in the first place, but it just never happens. It's a weasel word to refute formal religion but stick with unevidenced woo rather than face up to the realities of the situation: this is what we've got.

Why anyone would feel they need something more than this astounds me, but this reality appears to be the sum of our existence. That's neither difficult to comprehend nor inherently harmful to accept.

Them's my sentiments 

[Udayana]

There is an ethnic element but Hinduism is syncretic, including a wide range of beliefs and practices. There have always been atheist Hindus and ascetics who leave society to follow their own way. Anyone can be a Hindu if they make an effort to follow a "spiritual" way, although what that means remains elusive.

I'd think it could include the people with values and inclinations of those in Shaker's "Atheism and meaning" thread in the other section - positive life affirming, progressive and compassionate values. Why not? I think this is what Sriram means by "secular spiritualism"

In Hinduism there are three main "paths" or "yogas"

Bhakti - path of devotion, this most closely matches traditional western view of religion
Jnana - path of knowledge, based on study, philosophy and meditation
Karma - path of action, based on constructive activity in society and the world

[Rhiannon]

Therapists often talk of taking care of oneself 'spiritually', and for me this means (as I've said a million times) nurturing the side of us that goes beyond the physical stuff we need to survive - the part of us that marvels at clouds or a sunset, that prefers good food in good company to a microwave dinner in front of the TV, the part of us that cries at Vaughan Williams and rescues cats. It's taking a long candlelit bath instead of jumping in the shower, picking flowers for the table, painting a picture nobody else but you will ever see. No woo, just a better quality of life.

[Udayana]

Sounds fine to me Rhi.

[Shaker]

That's a better definition than most I've seen 

[Sriram]

What is spirituality? Again?!   

I have written about all this several times (Real God, Tat Tvam Asi, Know thyself and many other posts).

I don't think I'll be able to clarify any further.   

[Udayana]

Isn't everyone spiritual - ie, any conscious self-reflective entity?

[Nearly Sane]

Isn't everyone spiritual - ie, any conscious self-reflective entity?

We may well be but surely it needs something approaching a definition to be useful?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Many people I have come across in the UK have obviously taken an inner journey and find they are now very much ''Up themselves''.

[floo]

Isn't everyone spiritual - ie, any conscious self-reflective entity?

I wouldn't describe myself as spiritual, in any shape or form.