Three quarters of young women concerned about sexual harassment.

[Rhiannon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34039534

The biggest concerns for young women are self harm, eating disorders and poor mental health.

Why is it that so many young women are harassed to the point where they feel shame and/or change how they dress? And what on earth is going on where 39% of respondents to the survey have been in the receiving end of negative comments about their appearance in the week the survey was taken?

[jeremyp]

Why is it that so many young women are harassed to the point where they feel shame and/or change how they dress?

What do you mean by "so many"?  The article doesn't say that three quarters of girls have been harassed, only that three quarters of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of being harassed that they change their behaviour because of it.

And what on earth is going on where 39% of respondents to the survey have been in the receiving end of negative comments about their appearance in the week the survey was taken?

Couldn't begin to tell you if that is a high or a low figure.  How negative do the comments have to be?  Would "you look like you've been dragged through a hedge backwards" count as a negative comment about their appearance?  I only ask because that was a phrase I heard quite a lot in my teens, usually from my teachers.

[Leonard James]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34039534

The biggest concerns for young women are self harm, eating disorders and poor mental health.

Why is it that so many young women are harassed to the point where they feel shame and/or change how they dress? And what on earth is going on where 39% of respondents to the survey have been in the receiving end of negative comments about their appearance in the week the survey was taken?

Hardly surprising when they live their lives bombarded by the media with adverts on how to look more beautiful, how to dress, how to live, how to eat, what make-up to use, etc., all of them promoted by big business using beautiful model girls.

[Rhiannon]

Why is it that so many young women are harassed to the point where they feel shame and/or change how they dress?

What do you mean by "so many"?  The article doesn't say that three quarters of girls have been harassed, only that three quarters of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of being harassed that they change their behaviour because of it.

And what on earth is going on where 39% of respondents to the survey have been in the receiving end of negative comments about their appearance in the week the survey was taken?

Couldn't begin to tell you if that is a high or a low figure.  How negative do the comments have to be?  Would "you look like you've been dragged through a hedge backwards" count as a negative comment about their appearance?  I only ask because that was a phrase I heard quite a lot in my teens, usually from my teachers.

Ok, let's say 25% are paranoid about the harassment. That's leaving g us with a half of young women affected by genuine harassment.

How many adults had negative comments about their appearance in a comparable period? Comments from a superior at work would be harassment yet it's ok for teachers to put kids down?

[jeremyp]

Ok, let's say 25% are paranoid about the harassment. That's leaving g us with a half of young women affected by genuine harassment.

That's a number you have pulled out of your arse.  Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid.  The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it.  We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.

How many adults had negative comments about their appearance in a comparable period?

I told you I have no idea.  That's the problem, we don't know if it's a big number or not.

Comments from a superior at work would be harassment yet it's ok for teachers to put kids down?

  I gave you an example of a negative comment.  I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.

[Rhiannon]

As a female poster I find your comment offensive.

[Harrowby Hall]

There is a whole, very large, industry which devotes itself to the activity of making women feel bad about themselves.

It is called fashion.

Girls on the verge of womanhood are particularly susceptible to its malign influences. They perceive fashion as an instrument in the process of conformity and belonging. They are - too often - not able to resit its blandishments and be themselves.

School uniforms might be seen as an antidote to its influence, but even these are adjusted, distorted as far as possible to be peceived as fashionable.

In a similar way, they perceive the activities displayed in mainstream pornography as indicating normal sexual practice. Many of these activities show aggression towards women.

[Rhiannon]

There is a whole, very large, industry which devotes itself to the activity of making women feel bad about themselves.

It is called fashion.

Girls on the verge of womanhood are particularly susceptible to its malign influences. They perceive fashion as an instrument in the process of conformity and belonging. They are - too often - not able to resit its blandishments and be themselves.

School uniforms might be seen as an antidote to its influence, but even these are adjusted, distorted as far as possible to be peceived as fashionable.

In a similar way, they perceive the activities displayed in mainstream pornography as indicating normal sexual practice. Many of these activities show aggression towards women.

So far my girls are both oblivious to fashion, to the extent that my eldest sends me out to buy stuff for school trips etc because she knows I will come back with something vaguely cool enough. The body image thing is a whole other topic though. From year 6 they are taught in school to count calories and being fat is stigmatised. So far I think my girls have been ok and we talk about dieting, eating disorders, airbrushing in magazines and fat shaming a lot, but quite a few of their friends have 'fasting days' or just don't eat at all during the school day, even though they aren't at all overweight.

I've posted on here before about the harassment my eldest got from a classmate last year. Forcing/tricking girls into viewing porn, making rape jokes, asking girls if they'd like to be raped...how normal this is I don't know but the school has now banned the use of smartphones. Still, she regularly gets asked what her bra size is etc.

To answer Jeremy's point, yes, the figures aren't clear cut and I did arbitrarily say maybe a third of those with anxiety about sexual harassment were anxious through paranoia rather than with real cause. But something is going very wrong if young girls are feeling like this. I suspect that social media, smartphones etc are making harassment both easier and more acceptable.

As for negative comments, as you rightly point out HH this is a terribly delicate age and 'joking' comments from family or sarcasm from teachers goes deeper than it should. But again we have social media where people say things that they wouldn't dream of face to face. And teenagers can be incredibly cruel. Many of them of course will see celebrities being trashed in the media for putting on weight or having cellulite, and such unkindness becomes normalised.

[Owlswing]

Ok, let's say 25% are paranoid about the harassment. That's leaving g us with a half of young women affected by genuine harassment.

That's a number you have pulled out of your arse.  Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid.  The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it.  We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.

How many adults had negative comments about their appearance in a comparable period?

I told you I have no idea.  That's the problem, we don't know if it's a big number or not.

Comments from a superior at work would be harassment yet it's ok for teachers to put kids down?

  I gave you an example of a negative comment.  I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.

I will give you, JeremyP, an example of a negative comment - you, JeremyP are are an unpleasant mysogynistic arse!

[Outrider]

That's a number you have pulled out of your arse.  Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid.  The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it.  We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.

Yet you don't think to ask "why are they anxious in the first place?"?

I gave you an example of a negative comment.  I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.

But neither you nor I, as men, are in the position where our entire lives (as is the case for girls these days) have been a constant exposure to expectations on physical appearance, so it's difficult for us to figure how much of an impact even seemingly innocuous comments will have.

O.

[OH MY WORLD!]

 Jeremy actually read the article Matty and you have as usual resorted to your childish name calling. How about being grown up and tell us where Jeremy is wrong in his understanding of the article and wrong in his questions to Rhi?

Well I have gotten the sense over the years from my sisters and nieces that it is was other girls the same age that were the greatest harassers and critics towards each other.

[jeremyp]

As a female poster I find your comment offensive.

In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower?  I'm just telling you what the survey really says.

[Owlswing]

Jeremy actually read the article Matty and you have as usual resorted to your childish name calling. How about being grown up and tell us where Jeremy is wrong in his understanding of the article and wrong in his questions to Rhi?

Well I have gotten the sense over the years from my sisters and nieces that it is was other girls the same age that were the greatest harassers and critics towards each other.

Childish name calling?

Hmm, at least I vary the names I call people according to the way I view their opinions and comments - you on tge other hand are incapable of using any other negative comment but "witch".

Considering your frequently posted comments about the community in whch you live I am not surprised that "it is was (sic) other girls the same age that were the greatest harassers and critics towards each other" as the brand of Christianity you broadcast on this Forum probably keeps the sexes separated in case they learn that sex between the sexes might be as big a sin as between the same sex but is just as much fun.

Go back to your milk and cookies - you are not ready for grown up food yet and it will soon be time for your nappy, sorry, diaper, change and nap!

When you wake up - get off my back!

[Owlswing]

As a female poster I find your comment offensive.

In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower?  I'm just telling you what the survey really says.

Yes, in the most unpleasant and mysogynistic way possible!

What is that sound of hoofbeats? Oh, it is the 7th Cavalry (JC) gallopping to your defence!

[jeremyp]

That's a number you have pulled out of your arse.  Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid.  The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it.  We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.

Yet you don't think to ask "why are they anxious in the first place?"?

I don't need to, it's because they have either experienced sexual harassment or been told there is a pretty good chance that they will be sexually harassed at some point.  I do not know what the split is nor does Rhiannon and the article she linked to does not tell us, in spite of her assertions.

I gave you an example of a negative comment.  I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.

But neither you nor I, as men, are in the position where our entire lives (as is the case for girls these days) have been a constant exposure to expectations on physical appearance, so it's difficult for us to figure how much of an impact even seemingly innocuous comments will have.

This is true, but it doesn't alter the fact that Rhiannon is extrapolating conclusions that cannot be justified from the story she posted.  Over 40% of girls say they have been subject to negative remarks in the last week.  Fine, but that doesn't tell us anything about how bad those remarks were.  It also doesn't tell us the context of the remarks. 

Pretty much the only thing the survey tells us is that girls concerns about dangers to their mental wellbeing have changed over the years.

[jeremyp]

In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower?  I'm just telling you what the survey really says.

Yes, in the most unpleasant and mysogynistic way possible!

Why is pointing out that somebody has read too much into a story misogynistic?  If you made the same post, I wouldn't have replied in any particularly different way, even though you are not female.

[Rhiannon]

As a female poster I find your comment offensive.

In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower?  I'm just telling you what the survey really says.

Don't patronise me. Your sense of entitlement doesn't give you the right to tell me what I can and can't find offensive. I object to you telling me I've 'pulled things out of my arse'. If you think that is acceptable for you as a man to say to a woman you are seriously deluded.

[floo]

Sexual harassment is WRONG and girls, in particular, should be encouraged to make a stand if they are targeted in this way.

Children, girls and boys, need to be brought up to be themselves, NOT slavish followers of whatever fashion is prevalent at the time.

[Rhiannon]

That's a number you have pulled out of your arse.  Also, nobody said anybody was paranoid.  The survey says 3/4 of girls are anxious enough about the possibility of harassment to change their behaviour because of it.  We can't extrapolate what percentage of girls have actually been harassed from the story, although, obviously, any percentage above 0% is bad.

Yet you don't think to ask "why are they anxious in the first place?"?

I gave you an example of a negative comment.  I would hardly have described it as "putting down" and yet this survey gives us no idea how serious the negative comments these girls had received are, nor how badly affected the girls were.

But neither you nor I, as men, are in the position where our entire lives (as is the case for girls these days) have been a constant exposure to expectations on physical appearance, so it's difficult for us to figure how much of an impact even seemingly innocuous comments will have.

O.

Yes, that's the point I made earlier. Puberty and adolescence are just those ages where a comment meant as a joke can hurt to the quick. And with the best will in the world it's not a time when kids look their best either generally - spots, greasy hair, braces, body shape changes.

It's important too to note that it isn't just boys/men who make inappropriate comments. The most hurtful ones I'm aware of my daughter getting have been from other girls and always are around weight and body issues, even though my daughter's not actually overweight.

[Rhiannon]

In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower?  I'm just telling you what the survey really says.

Yes, in the most unpleasant and mysogynistic way possible!

Why is pointing out that somebody has read too much into a story misogynistic?  If you made the same post, I wouldn't have replied in any particularly different way, even though you are not female.

I answer your points re the survey in the second half of post #7.

[jeremyp]

As a female poster I find your comment offensive.

In what way is it offensive, oh delicate flower?  I'm just telling you what the survey really says.

Don't patronise me. Your sense of entitlement doesn't give you the right to tell me what I can and can't find offensive.

I didn't say you couldn't be offended, I asked you why it was offensive to you.

I object to you telling me I've 'pulled things out of my arse'.

That's a colloquial way of saying you made it up.  I use it all the time to all sorts of people who make things up.

If you think that is acceptable for you as a man to say to a woman you are seriously deluded.

Are you serious?  I'm not allowed to claim you made something up using colourful language just because you are a woman?

[Rhiannon]

Feel free to tell me I'm making up shit, or I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but you don't have to refer to my body, do you? Do you have any idea what that feels like?

[Nearly Sane]

I am not following in detail the 'discussion' between Rhiannon and jeremyp but I cannot see what is wrong with the pulling out of your arse comment being used specifically to a woman. It isn't specific, it's a generic turn of phrase. It is not a reference to anyone's actual body.

[Rhiannon]

I am not following in detail the 'discussion' between Rhiannon and jeremyp but I cannot see what is wrong with the pulling out of your arse comment being used specifically to a woman. It isn't specific, it's a generic turn of phrase. It is not a reference to anyone's actual body.

But I do. And I'm the one it was aimed at. Do you think you have the right to tell me if I can be offended or not as well?

[Nearly Sane]

No. But then neither does your offense justify anything. It isn't a comment about your body. It is simply a mocking phrase commonly used to state that the person has no justification for the statement. You may certainly take offence but your reasons for it that you have given are not justified. Do you think I don't have a right to point that out?