What is the difference................

[Leonard James]

...we pray that the doctors will be able to use their God-given abilities ...

Are you kidding? Those abilities are learned from the efforts of humans to better their own lot. Your "God" had nothing to do with it.

[floo]

Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.

If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?

[Hope]

Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.

If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?

Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).

[floo]

Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.

If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?

Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).

EXCUSES, EXCUSES!

[Hope]

Are you kidding? Those abilities are learned from the efforts of humans to better their own lot. Your "God" had nothing to do with it.

And you have incontrovertible evidence to prove this claim, Len?

[Hope]

EXCUSES, EXCUSES!

Are you suggesting that applying God-given human abilities is an excuse for God's apparently not getting involved?  I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't - surely they've been given for the express purpose of those with them acting as God's agents. 

[Sassy]

Funny how quiet those who believe the deity answers prayers have been on this thread. They are always willing to make excuses when the deity doesn't come up trumps!

There isn't a need for excuses. You asked;.................

what is the difference
 .......between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?

If you get lucky, prayer might give you the outcome you wish for, so will touching wood. It is all a matter of chance, imo.


What is your opinion worth....

Are you saying touching wood works for you... Are you saying no member of your family have prayed for another member of the family and received an answer to their prayers..

I can guarantee you never have touched wood for anything serious and other members of your family have prayed when something worrying come along and hey presto they got well or help came.

May be the truth is you already know the answers as the believers do. Prayer works and has results but touching wood is a useless superstition and has no powerful affect in anyway.


Why ask believers something you in your reality and in a truthful opinion would have stated that outcomes when prayers been said has been favourable. But touching wood hasn't. Did you really need a believer to show you how your replies were totally without any basis.

[Leonard James]

When we are in a desperate situation, we will try anything and everything that might possibly help us. Many atheists, myself included, will ask a god of some sort to help, even though we don't believe there is one.

That is simply because nobody knows for certain that such a thing does or doesn't exist.

Any port in a storm is a very human action.

[Rhiannon]

I'm currently reading a fascinating book on East Anglian magic and folklore. It details everything from keeping mummified cats by the hearth to charms to trap 'imps' in bottles. People were just as likely to consult the local cunning man or wise woman as pray in church.

For me intent is key. I've mentioned before that I have no issue with destroying photographs. If however I deliberately scratched a face out of a photograph with the intent that it would hurt that person I believe it would have an effect because of what it would release within me.

I don't see the point in praying for things that go against the natural order. Asking for better health won't happen if you then eat pizza on the sofa, but if a prayer or ritual then focuses one's intent to eat better and be more active then it has done its job.

[Shaker]

I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't

There goes the fallacy alarm!

[floo]

EXCUSES, EXCUSES!

Are you suggesting that applying God-given human abilities is an excuse for God's apparently not getting involved?  I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't - surely they've been given for the express purpose of those with them acting as God's agents.

If I was in a position to rescue someone who was in desperate need of help, I would act on that immediately not sit there in the hope someone else might do it, and possibly cock it up!

[floo]

Funny how quiet those who believe the deity answers prayers have been on this thread. They are always willing to make excuses when the deity doesn't come up trumps!

There isn't a need for excuses. You asked;.................

what is the difference
 .......between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?

If you get lucky, prayer might give you the outcome you wish for, so will touching wood. It is all a matter of chance, imo.


What is your opinion worth....

Are you saying touching wood works for you... Are you saying no member of your family have prayed for another member of the family and received an answer to their prayers..

I can guarantee you never have touched wood for anything serious and other members of your family have prayed when something worrying come along and hey presto they got well or help came.

May be the truth is you already know the answers as the believers do. Prayer works and has results but touching wood is a useless superstition and has no powerful affect in anyway.


Why ask believers something you in your reality and in a truthful opinion would have stated that outcomes when prayers been said has been favourable. But touching wood hasn't. Did you really need a believer to show you how your replies were totally without any basis.

Touching wood is as effective as saying a prayer, as I know for a fact!.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Rhi,
You think a screwball could stick pins in a little figurine that represents me and I would feel it? Come on now, no seriously?

[Shaker]

Rhi,
You think a screwball could stick pins in a little figurine that represents me and I would feel it? Come on now, no seriously?

That's not what she said - as I read it, she was referring to the fact such a thing has negative, harmful consequences, not for the target of ill will but for the one who harbours such sentiments. Buddhists say that directing anger at others is like picking up a hot coal to throw at someone; all that actually happens of course is that you burn yourself.

[OH MY WORLD!]

I didn't write that she SAID anything. Pay attention Shaker, I asked a question. Old Shaker is going anal big time today. (snork)

[Rhiannon]

Rhi,
You think a screwball could stick pins in a little figurine that represents me and I would feel it? Come on now, no seriously?

That's not what she said - as I read it, she was referring to the fact such a thing has negative, harmful consequences, not for the target of ill will but for the one who harbours such sentiments. Buddhists say that directing anger at others is like picking up a hot coal to throw at someone; all that actually happens of course is that you burn yourself.

Exactly. And I think that can have such a distortion on one that it impacts on the wellbeing of others around you.

Of course if you damage a photograph as a form of release then that's different. It's intent, as I said.

[Hope]

I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't

There goes the fallacy alarm!

Thanks for alerting me to the fact that you'd pontificated, Shakes.  I almost missed it.

[Hope]

If I was in a position to rescue someone who was in desperate need of help, I would act on that immediately not sit there in the hope someone else might do it, and possibly cock it up!

OK, Floo, your daughter has travelled to Australia and been seriously injured in a car accident.  Are you in a position to 'rescue' her in her time of need?  If not, do you simply ignore the situation or does your mind immediately turn to hoping that the Aussie doctors (who might not be able to play cricket ) can sort the issue?

[floo]

If I was in a position to rescue someone who was in desperate need of help, I would act on that immediately not sit there in the hope someone else might do it, and possibly cock it up!

OK, Floo, your daughter has travelled to Australia and been seriously injured in a car accident.  Are you in a position to 'rescue' her in her time of need?  If not, do you simply ignore the situation or does your mind immediately turn to hoping that the Aussie doctors (who might not be able to play cricket ) can sort the issue?

Hope the flipping deity is supposed to be omnipotent so doesn't need the aid of humans to perform a 'miracle'!

[Shaker]

I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't

There goes the fallacy alarm!

Thanks for alerting me to the fact that you'd pontificated, Shakes.  I almost missed it.

Only if pontificate is in your vocabulary equal to 'pointing out that you've just employed your favourite massive logical fallacy yet again.'

Which it probably is.

Since you're evidently so touchy about whenever somebody picks you up on it every time you exhibit some form of lazy, sloppy thinking (since you've previously complained when I've previously pointed out your nigh-obsessive deployment of the negative proof fallacy), the easiest course would seem to be that you stop doing it, which in your case is practically every other day.

[2Corrie]

.................between saying a prayer and touching wood in the hope thereof?
 

May I refer to you Psalm 115

Why do the nations say,
    “Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in heaven;
    he does whatever pleases him.
4 But their idols are silver and gold,
    made by human hands.
5 They have mouths, but cannot speak,
    eyes, but cannot see.
6 They have ears, but cannot hear,
    noses, but cannot smell.
7 They have hands, but cannot feel,
    feet, but cannot walk,
    nor can they utter a sound with their throats.
8 Those who make them will be like them,
    and so will all who trust in them.

Or Isaiah 44 if you want to talk about wooden idols specifically 

[jeremyp]

Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.

If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?

Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).

Abuse on the prayer board?  I hardly think so.

[Shaker]

Hope, prayers are being asked for on the prayer board at present for a family in desperate need due to the very tragic circumstances facing them. If the lady concerned should recover I am in no doubt the deity will get all the accolades going. If she doesn't recover, the deity will not be blamed.

If the deity is capable of making people better why doesn't it do so, instead of playing silly beggars much of the time?

Floo, are there human agents who God can use in this case (I haven't read the thread, because of the abuse that I've seen so often on that board).

Abuse on the prayer board?  I hardly think so.

None that I've ever seen. I and others have taken (for example) Alan Burns to task for all the nonsenses inherent in the concept  of petitionary prayer, but on other sub-forums, not the PTA sub-forum.

I think Hope was just making it up.

[jeremyp]

I'd suggest that if these abilities are God-given - and no-one here has yet to provide any evidence (naturalistic or supernatural) that they aren't

I suggest you talk to a few doctors and find out how they acquired their abilities. You'll find that they did a long stint at medical school in which they were forced to study and train hard. Then I suggest you read a good history of medicine to find out where the knowledge they studied hard to attain actually came from. You'll find it is the result of centuries of human endeavour. God — you'll find — is conspicuous by his absence.

[Hope]

I suggest you talk to a few doctors and find out how they acquired their abilities. You'll find that they did a long stint at medical school in which they were forced to study and train hard. Then I suggest you read a good history of medicine to find out where the knowledge they studied hard to attain actually came from. You'll find it is the result of centuries of human endeavour. God — you'll find — is conspicuous by his absence.

Jeremy, did the medics you refer to enter medical school with absolutely no innate ability?  Did they go to school when they were 4 or 5 with no mental acuity?  Did they decide to study medicine at the last moment, or had they being preparing for this for some years? 

As far as 'where the knowledge they studied hard to attain actually came from' is concerned, did it suddenly appear from a puff of smoke, or was it somehow within the brains of certain people ready to be made available to humanity.

Before you make such sweeping generalisations, you need to make sure that your 'where they came from' doesn't pre-suppose some magical appearance at point X in time.