helping refugees

[ProfessorDavey]

Andy, ids taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed as helpful as helping them set up home somewhere close to home from where they will be able to return to their homes once this whole thing ends (if it does)?  I'm not trying to argue against the migrants - just wondering which it is the best thing that we can do.

Why do you think their needs and desires are so different to ours to justify the claims that we'd be 'taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed'.

I imagine the core things they want are identical to ours - security, a home and a job to provide for themselves and family. A chance to make their lives a bit better and to ensure that the chances that their children have in their lives are better again. Sounds pretty universal to me. How is that somehow alien to our culture Hope?

[Rhiannon]

I've supported the Refugee Council for many years and suggest their local offices would be a good place to ask how help is needed on a local level.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Me,

Mathew 25:40-46.

Gonnagle.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Helping refugees is vital and it has to start with supporting those that are trying to improve the situations at the source. Some are scared by the numbers of refugees flowing into Europe. OK, I get that, but having a bit of experience helping a refugee family that escaped arrest behind the iron curtain and made it to Canada, you will not regret helping to settle these people. I don't believe people are so different from each other. The family we brought to our farm and got them going in their new life in Canada were true supportive friends to my parents. The bond between them started growing immediately and I think these refugees will be so grateful for the help that they will turn out to be quite like these refugees my parents took in. 

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't believe people are so different from each other. The family we brought to our farm and got them going in their new life in Canada were true supportive friends to my parents. The bond between them started growing immediately and I think these refugees will be so grateful for the help that they will turn out to be quite like these refugees my parents took in.

I agree and that was the point I was making as a counter to Hope's view that somehow the cultural desires of refugees are somehow massively at odds with cultural norms in the UK. Frankly I'd bet my bottom dollar that the key things that these people want is stability, security and a safe place to live, raise their family and try to make a better life for themselves than the one they were forced to leave behind. And no doubt they will be both hugely grateful to and supportive of the communities that help them in this desperate time for them.

[Hope]

Why do you think their needs and desires are so different to ours to justify the claims that we'd be 'taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed'.

Largely because that is what I've heard from such folk on countless interviews.  They often say that they would rather be close to where they originate from and then be able to return there when things settle down.  If all we do is bring them over here, who will pay the bills when they want to return to Syria/Iraq/wherever with all their children?

I imagine the core things they want are identical to ours - security, a home and a job to provide for themselves and family. A chance to make their lives a bit better and to ensure that the chances that their children have in their lives are better again. Sounds pretty universal to me. How is that somehow alien to our culture Hope?

OK.  Let's just make a scenario that could be similar to theirs.  Jeremy Corbyn wins the Labour leadership election but then loses the 2020 Gen. Election.  The leftwing of the party and other left-wing and anarchist groupings decide that they disagree with the vote, claiming that it has been rigged, and start a programme of civil diobedience and disorder.  Slowly that escalates into civil war and anyone who has anything but left-wing political sympathies are threatened with losing their jobs and their homes.

Unlikely, I accept, but reflective of much of what happens in places like Syria and Libya.  If you were one of these whose lifeand livelihood was threatened, would you prefer to be able to live in a camp in France or Germany from where you could hop back as soon as the trouble stopped, or would you rather go to Brazil, or Argentina?

[Hope]

I agree and that was the point I was making as a counter to Hope's view that somehow the cultural desires of refugees are somehow massively at odds with cultural norms in the UK. Frankly I'd bet my bottom dollar that the key things that these people want is stability, security and a safe place to live, raise their family and try to make a better life for themselves than the one they were forced to leave behind. And no doubt they will be both hugely grateful to and supportive of the communities that help them in this desperate time for them.

What was the life they were forced to leave behind, PD?  A stable, secure, safe place to live where they were working and raising their families?  For many, that is precisely what they had until ISIS appeared on the scene, or Boko Haram/al Quaeda/...  Many want to return to their pre-ISIS/etc lives, not be shipped off to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away where the culture is alien to that which they grew up with.

[ProfessorDavey]

Why do you think their needs and desires are so different to ours to justify the claims that we'd be 'taking them into a culture that is a world away from that to which they are accustomed'.

Largely because that is what I've heard from such folk on countless interviews.  They often say that they would rather be close to where they originate from and then be able to return there when things settle down.  If all we do is bring them over here, who will pay the bills when they want to return to Syria/Iraq/wherever with all their children?

Really!?!

You must be listening to different people to me. The ones I've heard are desperate to make a new start in a new place as their homeland and home towns are destroyed as is any chance of safety or security. Do you really think they are taking huge risks to get across to Europe or through Europe if all they want to do is settle near where they came from.

And even if they do wish, one day, to settle back in their homeland, helping them make a new life isn't a problem. If they are successful, and given the huge effort they've put to get to Europe suggest no lack of motivation, then likely they will create the means to return one day should they wish

I imagine the core things they want are identical to ours - security, a home and a job to provide for themselves and family. A chance to make their lives a bit better and to ensure that the chances that their children have in their lives are better again. Sounds pretty universal to me. How is that somehow alien to our culture Hope?

OK.  Let's just make a scenario that could be similar to theirs.  Jeremy Corbyn wins the Labour leadership election but then loses the 2020 Gen. Election.  The leftwing of the party and other left-wing and anarchist groupings decide that they disagree with the vote, claiming that it has been rigged, and start a programme of civil diobedience and disorder.  Slowly that escalates into civil war and anyone who has anything but left-wing political sympathies are threatened with losing their jobs and their homes.

Unlikely, I accept, but reflective of much of what happens in places like Syria and Libya.  If you were one of these whose lifeand livelihood was threatened, would you prefer to be able to live in a camp in France or Germany from where you could hop back as soon as the trouble stopped, or would you rather go to Brazil, or Argentina?

I've no idea - but history tells us that once your homeland is destroyed (and that isn't just bricks and mortar, but often deep emotional scars) then returning may be the last thing you want to do. It isn't unreasonable to think that many of these people see their future in a new country, as a best approach to a life already ruined. But more significantly see the best for their children's futures as making a new start in a new country, which will become their children and their grandchildren's true home.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree and that was the point I was making as a counter to Hope's view that somehow the cultural desires of refugees are somehow massively at odds with cultural norms in the UK. Frankly I'd bet my bottom dollar that the key things that these people want is stability, security and a safe place to live, raise their family and try to make a better life for themselves than the one they were forced to leave behind. And no doubt they will be both hugely grateful to and supportive of the communities that help them in this desperate time for them.

What was the life they were forced to leave behind, PD?  A stable, secure, safe place to live where they were working and raising their families?  For many, that is precisely what they had until ISIS appeared on the scene, or Boko Haram/al Quaeda/...  Many want to return to their pre-ISIS/etc lives, not be shipped off to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away where the culture is alien to that which they grew up with.

Who is 'shipping them off' to new countries. From what I can see they are the ones making the decision to travel to these countries. No-one is forcing them to move beyond Turkey for example.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Hope,
 I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well refugees will adjust and contribute to the country if given the opportunity. I don't about the Vietnamese boat people in the UK but the thousands that Canada took in did exactly that. I believe most of these people are true refugees not cue jumping illegal immigrants.

[ProfessorDavey]

Hope,
 I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well refugees will adjust and contribute to the country if given the opportunity. I don't about the Vietnamese boat people in the UK but the thousands that Canada took in did exactly that. I believe most of these people are true refugees not cue jumping illegal immigrants.

Agreed.

What Hope doesn't quite seem to recognise is that for many of these people their previous life is over, the memories of what have happened may be too painful ever to want to go back. And while once they might have felt very loyal to their home that has changed. And I'm sure many who are parents are now thinking about their children - their own lives have been ruined but they will do everything they can to give their children the best chance possible, and that may be in another country. Sure it will be painful, but for a 5 year old child is their future better in transit and then returning (if, and only if) Syria is restored to some sense of normality any time soon. Or are they better off making a new start somewhere else entirely - somewhere where their kids can be assured of a decent education, have chances to make a good life.

[Rhiannon]

Hope,
 I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well refugees will adjust and contribute to the country if given the opportunity. I don't about the Vietnamese boat people in the UK but the thousands that Canada took in did exactly that. I believe most of these people are true refugees not cue jumping illegal immigrants.

Agreed.

What Hope doesn't quite seem to recognise is that for many of these people their previous life is over, the memories of what have happened may be too painful ever to want to go back. And while once they might have felt very loyal to their home that has changed. And I'm sure many who are parents are now thinking about their children - their own lives have been ruined but they will do everything they can to give their children the best chance possible, and that may be in another country. Sure it will be painful, but for a 5 year old child is their future better in transit and then returning (if, and only if) Syria is restored to some sense of normality any time soon. Or are they better off making a new start somewhere else entirely - somewhere where their kids can be assured of a decent education, have chances to make a good life.

I agree. There will be some who do want to return home one day and rebuild what was and try to heal places and memories. But that lies in a hoped-for future. Right now though safety is the priority, simply staying alive, with a home and education for their children.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree and that was the point I was making as a counter to Hope's view that somehow the cultural desires of refugees are somehow massively at odds with cultural norms in the UK. Frankly I'd bet my bottom dollar that the key things that these people want is stability, security and a safe place to live, raise their family and try to make a better life for themselves than the one they were forced to leave behind. And no doubt they will be both hugely grateful to and supportive of the communities that help them in this desperate time for them.

What was the life they were forced to leave behind, PD?  A stable, secure, safe place to live where they were working and raising their families?  For many, that is precisely what they had until ISIS appeared on the scene, or Boko Haram/al Quaeda/...  Many want to return to their pre-ISIS/etc lives, not be shipped off to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away where the culture is alien to that which they grew up with.

Ask yourself this Hope.

In the 1930s thousands of jews were displaced from Germany as persecution and terror spread. They ended up in all sorts of countries as refugees. Many would carry horribly painful memories of those last months in their homeland - memories of friends and families who didn't escape, who ultimately ended up dead. Their memories would be inextricably clouded by that horror. Many would be families with young children.

Once the war was over and Germany restored to a sense of normality isn't it understandable that many didn't want to return to the scene of such horror but preferred to continue to live in their new country. Felt that although their own lives had been destroyed their children would be better building a new life as a British or USA citizen than returning to a Germany that they only knew as a young child.

Sounds reasonable to me, and I think this is the perfectly reasonable mindset of many of today's refugees. If you have a 5 year old child, what memory do they have of Syria, in what way is that home for them, particularly if it takes perhaps 10 years before they could reasonably return. Which is more home to a child. A place you left in terror at the age of 5 or the place you have lived, made friends, been educated etc etc from the age of 5 to 15?

[ProfessorDavey]

Hope,
 I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well refugees will adjust and contribute to the country if given the opportunity. I don't about the Vietnamese boat people in the UK but the thousands that Canada took in did exactly that. I believe most of these people are true refugees not cue jumping illegal immigrants.

Agreed.

What Hope doesn't quite seem to recognise is that for many of these people their previous life is over, the memories of what have happened may be too painful ever to want to go back. And while once they might have felt very loyal to their home that has changed. And I'm sure many who are parents are now thinking about their children - their own lives have been ruined but they will do everything they can to give their children the best chance possible, and that may be in another country. Sure it will be painful, but for a 5 year old child is their future better in transit and then returning (if, and only if) Syria is restored to some sense of normality any time soon. Or are they better off making a new start somewhere else entirely - somewhere where their kids can be assured of a decent education, have chances to make a good life.

I agree. There will be some who do want to return home one day and rebuild what was and try to heal places and memories. But that lies in a hoped-for future. Right now though safety is the priority, simply staying alive, with a home and education for their children.

Yup - the future for many of these people is the future of their children, not the future of the town where they once lived.

[wigginhall]

I was thinking of parallels with Jewish refugees, and I think there were heroic stories and nasty stories of people helping them, and refusing them help.   There are stories of refugee ships being turned away, and also that some Jews were refused entry to Switzerland, which seems odd. 

This old poster is rather astonishing, as it shows Jews trying to escape by boat in a stormy sea. 

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/08/08336.jpg

[Andy]

Oh, when you said "old poster" I first thought you were talking about yourself!

[wigginhall]

Well, this old poster grew up in Manchester, and I had many Jewish friends.  Anyway, I believe that Manchester had received several thousand Jewish refugees, fleeing from fascist Europe in the 30s.   Many schmutter-cutters I think. 

Legend has it that they were received quite poorly in some areas, lots of anti-semitism, I guess.   History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy ...

[Rhiannon]

My little town opened its doors to refugees from Bosnia, there was a drop-off point where we could bring clothes, bedding and household items.

[Andy]

Well, this old poster grew up in Manchester, and I had many Jewish friends.  Anyway, I believe that Manchester had received several thousand Jewish refugees, fleeing from fascist Europe in the 30s.   Many schmutter-cutters I think. 

Legend has it that they were received quite poorly in some areas, lots of anti-semitism, I guess.   History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy ...

Yea, my dad talks fondly of the Jewish community in Salford, harking back to a Jewish bakery in Broughton that he still considers to be the best bread he's ever had. My gramps, however, had a different outlook, but then he was a prick.

[Rhiannon]

My great uncle marched with Moseley til he realised what they were doing. He tried to stop the blackshirts attacking the Jewish businesses and got the crap beaten out of him.

My nan talked sadly of the internment of her Italian neighbours who, she was certain, were a threat to nobody.

[Shaker]

My great uncle marched with Moseley til he realised what they were doing. He tried to stop the blackshirts attacking the Jewish businesses and got the crap beaten out of him.

I have to admit that my grandad joined Mosley's motley crew in the 1930s, but that was only because he needed a clean new shirt.

Here all week, folks, try the fish 

[wigginhall]

My little town opened its doors to refugees from Bosnia, there was a drop-off point where we could bring clothes, bedding and household items.

Yeah, I suppose Bosnians were sort of OK, being white, but on the other hand, they were also Muslims (some of them), and the women wore head-scarves, bad, very bad. 

I was wondering if there was a catastrophe in say, Denmark, and thousands of Danes had to flee - would there be such a fuss at taking them in?

Syrians are brown, and again, Muslim (mostly), and probably secret terrorists. 

[ProfessorDavey]

Well, this old poster grew up in Manchester, and I had many Jewish friends.  Anyway, I believe that Manchester had received several thousand Jewish refugees, fleeing from fascist Europe in the 30s.   Many schmutter-cutters I think. 

Legend has it that they were received quite poorly in some areas, lots of anti-semitism, I guess.   History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy ...

I must admit that I sometimes think there are a lot of rose tinted spectacles about that time.

You'd get the impression that everything was open armed welcoming of jewish refugees, but I don't think that was the case. Don't forget that there was a lot of anti semitism in the UK at the time too, and plenty of support for far right politics (think Mosely). So sure there were people who were helpful and supportive but also many who were hostile of these 'incomers' and suspicious of them, probably believing a lot of the jewish stereotypes of the time.

So rather than compare a supposed golden age of helping refugees with the tardy response of the UK today, perhaps we should reflect that in the 1930s there were plenty of people who didn't want any more immigrants coming in, just as there are today. But as we look back at the 1930s it is easy for us to recognise with hindsight that that attitude was dangerously wrong. And that may help us to rethink our approach now.

[ProfessorDavey]

My little town opened its doors to refugees from Bosnia, there was a drop-off point where we could bring clothes, bedding and household items.

Yeah, I suppose Bosnians were sort of OK, being white, but on the other hand, they were also Muslims (some of them), and the women wore head-scarves, bad, very bad. 

I was wondering if there was a catastrophe in say, Denmark, and thousands of Danes had to flee - would there be such a fuss at taking them in?

Syrians are brown, and again, Muslim (mostly), and probably secret terrorists.

Indeed - but of course those fleeing are probably as anti-ISIS and what they stand for as we are, and indeed that's why they were having to flee.

[Hope]

Syrians are brown, and again, Muslim (mostly), and probably secret terrorists.

That's because many Syrian Christians are either in camps in Lebanon or Jordan - from which we will, I understand, be bringing the 1000's that David cameron has been talking about.