Author Topic: Oh Dear  (Read 14107 times)

Shaker

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2015, 06:46:42 PM »
No, it couldn't, but that won't stop you trying ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2015, 06:47:46 PM »
Just not honest that those two ladies were worried about the child's treatment from others over her mixed race and not about the two mommies thingy. They were only concerned about themselves.

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ippy

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2015, 06:50:46 PM »
Don't really see what this has to do with parents being a same sex couple, presumably the same kind of mistake can happen with hetero parents or same race or mixed race parents.

Neither does it overtly have anything to do with bullying.The parents are claiming that "because of her upbringing she had stereotypical attitudes about black people and had “limited cultural competency” when dealing with African-Americans."

Which, admittedly, makes no sense to me - surely the parents are responsible for bringing the child up with suitable attitudes? Why would a black child need to be brought up with different attitudes than a white child?

What sort of compensation are they expecting for a child being the wrong race?

Quite.

ippy

ippy

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2015, 07:01:13 PM »
Ippy,
You are going on just like little Matty. We are talking about Ohio, not your island nor  here in God's country Alberta. Give your head a shake. Those ladies don't give a flip about what that child is going to face. If you think that child will not face problems from the community over having two mommies than you are a jokers fool. They don't care ippy, it's about them not her.

For starters there is no such thing as gods country anywhere, it only exists inside your head.

Wherever these people are, they are years behind the UK, none of the things you describe are a problem here, what do you think it might be, a faulty culture, lack of a good standard of education or like Canada where the general population are nowhere as good looking as we are?

ippy

Aruntraveller

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2015, 07:24:12 PM »
Come on - People!

Haven't we learned that when we see that a post on any subject is by Johnny Canoe it is going to be totally and utterly unpleasant and bigotted in just about every way that it is possible to be!

He is second in unquestionable perfection only to Hope. Or is he?

No - I really don't think that is the case. I get no feeling of personal or more general homophobia from JC. He looks at things in a different way which I sometimes vehemently disagree with - but homophobic, no.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2015, 07:50:07 PM »
Are you serious ipp? Gay children are bullied in your schools and you don't believe that children of same sex parents are bullied?

Outrider

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2015, 08:33:11 PM »
Whoooa there boy. I think you are on a bit of a sticky chucking in what is ''natural'' here.

Really? Why?

Quote
Who said the possibility of racism was the first consideration here.

That's certainly the thrust of JC's commentary.

Quote
Are you saying the possibility shouldn't be discussed or swept under the carpet.

Did I do anything to suggest this, is this you warming to your new theme of 'intellectual totalitarianism' as a way of trying to avoid dealing with things?

Quote
You seem to be introducing a hierarchy of concerns here where racial concerns come below consumer satisfaction.

No, I'm saying there are legitimate racial concerns without there being racism.

[quoteWhat will the child think when it finds out how horrified it's parents were on it's arrival?[/quote]

I strongly suspect that will be dependent upon what the child's relationship with them is at the time, and how it gets broken to them.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2015, 08:35:47 PM »
Ippy,
My point is those ladies conning you into believing that a mixed child will be bullied but not a child of same sex parents. They are not honest, it's about them and what they want, not the child.  And just to keep you real, Canada was years ahead of you and the USA on legalizing same sex marriage.

Where do they pretend the child won't possibly face victimisation from bigots because of its parents? The fact they didn't want multiple reasons for people to bully their child doesn't mean they're ignoring any of them.

O.
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OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2015, 11:47:41 PM »
There are over 4,000,000 mixed race people in Ohio. Chances that the child will be bullied for being mixed race are pretty much nill. They LOST their case. They were not concerned about the child being bullied for same sex parents enough not to go sperm shopping. It isn't about the child, it's all about what those two wanted. They are not being honest. Again, they lost.

jakswan

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2015, 06:33:15 AM »
There are over 4,000,000 mixed race people in Ohio.

With a population of 11 million wiki says 2% are mixed race. Want me to give you a hand with the maths.

Quote
Chances that the child will be bullied for being mixed race are pretty much nill.

Even if you had got the population correct it still doesn't follow that discrimination would not occur.

Quote
They LOST their case. They were not concerned about the child being bullied for same sex parents enough not to go sperm shopping. It isn't about the child, it's all about what those two wanted. They are not being honest. Again, they lost.

Maybe they feel their community is more accepting of same sex couples than it is of ethnicity.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2015, 09:06:40 AM »
Hopefully the kid will have all the love and care it needs ... they seem intelligent parents.

However, I don't think the clinic concerned should just get away with a 'partial refund'. It was a gigantic error, and they are solely responsible ... so they should pay a big compensation.

I would think breach of contract. Don't get me wrong, I am uneasy about children being conceived in this manner for a variety of reasons, but from a dispassionate point of view that would seem to be the logical course of action.

Shaker

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2015, 11:21:50 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I am uneasy about children being conceived in this manner for a variety of reasons
Which are?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2015, 11:25:37 AM »
We'll find out if and when HWB replies.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2015, 02:20:09 PM »
You really do think children are useless don't you Shaker. That post you wrote some time back wasn't a joke, that's what you think of children.

A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and  having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.

That child is going to be very troubled and those two ladies are to blame.

Outrider

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2015, 02:25:55 PM »
A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and  having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.

The child isn't going to have a 'daddy', it's going to have two mums who love it dearly and who give it everything they have and can, just like most parents. My wife and I are currently looking into a fertility treatment that will remove our genetics from the equation for a third child, as our previous two were both autistic: what does that make us? I'm not even a sperm donor in this equation, yet I'll be there at the birth and every day I can thereafter.

Parenting isn't about providing the raw materials, it's about providing love and plasters, understanding and discipline, knowledge and sympathy. It's about being there.

From your description adopted children should be hating the people who had the temerity to pretend they actually cared...

Quote
That child is going to be very troubled and those two ladies are to blame.

The evidence to date suggests that the fact that the child will be raised by two women rather than a man and a woman will make very little difference to their success or happiness, though they will likely be better of than a single-parent family. Don't let inconvenient things like the data get in the way of your prejudice, though, you keep on foaming at the mouth as much you like, it's a free country after all.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2015, 08:31:12 PM »
A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and  having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.

The child isn't going to have a 'daddy', it's going to have two mums who love it dearly
Let's hope so. Apparently they were initially horrified at the birth.

Shaker

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2015, 10:04:04 PM »
You really do think children are useless don't you Shaker. That post you wrote some time back wasn't a joke, that's what you think of children.

A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and  having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.
No idea where this vapid twaddle comes from - certainly not from the 26 words I'd contributed to this thread up to this point - but as I think Outrider said very recently, why let facts and reality get in the way of another one of your swivel-eyed, reality-divorced, content-free bilious rants?

Quote
That child is going to be very troubled and those two ladies are to blame.
Assumption on your part.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2015, 09:00:34 AM »
Plenty of fathers I know might as well have been sperm donors for all the good they've contributed to their children's lives. Even a few mothers. We need to stop this sentimental bullshit about parenting.

Shaker

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2015, 09:01:06 AM »
Hear hear.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2015, 09:23:17 AM »
Plenty of fathers I know might as well have been sperm donors for all the good they've contributed to their children's lives. Even a few mothers. We need to stop this sentimental bullshit about parenting.
I'd disagree, Rhi.  I'd say that we need to start paying proper attention to the 'sentimental bullshit about parenting' - namely that both parents should know what its all about, that they should take equal shares in the process of bringing up their child, that they are both responsible for the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being of that child, that they are both required in the life of that child, etc. 

By the way, Rhi, could you amend whichever link has created this extra-wide format - I think it may have been one that Johnny C posted.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 09:25:29 AM by Hope »
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Owlswing

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2015, 10:02:16 AM »
Plenty of fathers I know might as well have been sperm donors for all the good they've contributed to their children's lives. Even a few mothers. We need to stop this sentimental bullshit about parenting.
I'd disagree, Rhi.  I'd say that we need to start paying proper attention to the 'sentimental bullshit about parenting' - namely that both parents should know what its all about, that they should take equal shares in the process of bringing up their child, that they are both responsible for the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being of that child, that they are both required in the life of that child, etc. 

By the way, Rhi, could you amend whichever link has created this extra-wide format - I think it may have been one that Johnny C posted.

The sentimental bullshit has been around for years! Lots of years.

The only people who do not understand the responsibilities of parenting are those who are so selfish that they don't care.

The sentmetal bullshit is the much vaunted idea that parenting is the ultimate reason for male and female, nowhere are the pitfalls, the hard parts, given the prominence that is given to the beaming smiles, the perfectly behaved kids, the ultra-smart home with all mod-cons, that is, the sentimental bullshit!.

The sentimental bullshit leaves out all the possible dark parts of parenting:

The stress of getting little or no sleep for at least the first year and still having to go to work dog tired or, for the mother, having to try and keep the house in proper order and do the chores, while dog-tired;

The stress of getting little or no sleep whilst the child is teething (this period is even harder on the mother as she can't get away from it by going to work);

When the children get older they are not all perfect little angels, some kids, for hundreds of different reasons other than bad parenting, are, to put it bluntly, right little bastards.

. . . and so on, and so on!

Get rid of the sentimental bullshit and bring on a large and harsh dose of reality! Maybe then there will be fewer parents who are compleetly unprepared and completely unable to cope with the hardships of parenting because they believe the sentimental bullshit.

I know that you are going to tell us that on your extensive travels and in your incomparable knowledge of parenting all over the world and from you extensive and superlative academic knowledge that this is not so, and also, of course, most important of all, it is God's will that we should all be parents which is why he made male and female and why Christians are so against same sex marriages.

Oh, and, of course, you and your Mrs were superlative parents and your kids the epitome of what kids should be - especially other peoples kids who will be compared negatively to your own! 
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Outrider

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2015, 01:46:16 PM »
A child having to go through the rest of their life, knowing daddy was nothing but a sperm donor from a clinic, and having everybody know this, and  having a couple of women so selfish as to do this to you. And nothing from you? Their useless anyways right.

The child isn't going to have a 'daddy', it's going to have two mums who love it dearly
Let's hope so. Apparently they were initially horrified at the birth.

Horrified at the baby or horrified at the situation? Not that either is entirely inappropriate, it's a delicate time. As a parent of disabled children I can tell you that there's a huge swathe of guilt at the conflicting feelings you get each and every time you realise you've just your child for something that wasn't their fault.

O.
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Hope

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2015, 02:15:16 PM »
The child isn't going to have a 'daddy', it's going to have two mums who love it dearly
Has there been any longitudinal studies carried out as to the psychological effect (+ve, -ve or neutral) on children who have 2 same-sex parents?

Has anything similar been done on children who have only ever had one parent, whether male of female(ie not children who have been through the trauma of parental divorce or the death of one of the parents)?

If there has been, do the two outcomes match in any way?
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Outrider

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2015, 02:40:28 PM »
Has there been any longitudinal studies carried out as to the psychological effect (+ve, -ve or neutral) on children who have 2 same-sex parents?

Has anything similar been done on children who have only ever had one parent, whether male of female(ie not children who have been through the trauma of parental divorce or the death of one of the parents)?

If there has been, do the two outcomes match in any way?

Yes, there have.

There's this one on same-sex parents and their lack of any discernible affect on children's well-being compared to mixed-sex parents.
http://qz.com/438469/the-science-is-clear-children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-are-at-no-disadvantage/

This one - http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11113-014-9329-6 "Differences that exist in child well-being are largely due to socioeconomic circumstances and family stability."

This one - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15504280802177615 "Extensive data available from more than 30 years of research reveal that children raised by gay and lesbian parents have demonstrated resilience with regard to social, psychological, and sexual health despite economic and legal disparities and social stigma. Many studies have demonstrated that children’s well-being is affected much more by their relationships with their parents, their parents’ sense of competence and security, and the presence of social and economic support for the family than by the gender or the sexual orientation of their parents. Lack of opportunity for same-gender couples to marry adds to families’ stress, which affects the health and welfare of all household members"

This one particularly about lesbian parents - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/126/1/28.abstract "The 17-year-old daughters and sons of lesbian mothers were rated significantly higher in social, school/academic, and total competence and significantly lower in social problems, rule-breaking, aggressive, and externalizing problem behavior than their age-matched counterparts… Within the lesbian family sample, no Child Behavior Checklist differences were found among adolescent offspring who were conceived by known, as-yet-unknown, and permanently unknown donors or between offspring whose mothers were still together and offspring whose mothers had separated… Adolescents who have been reared in lesbian-mother families since birth demonstrate healthy psychological adjustment."

This one which shows how much better it is for children to be  adopted into same-sex homes than it is for them to be left in state care  - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20879687 "Children of same-sex couples are as likely to make normal progress through school as the children of most other family structures… the advantage of heterosexual married couples is mostly due to their higher socioeconomic status. Children of all family types (including children of same-sex couples) are far more likely to make normal progress through school than are children living in group quarters (such as orphanages and shelters)"

This one, with slight support for the idea that gay parents might produce a slightly higher incident of gay/gender-fluid children (interesting for those of us, and I include myself in this group, who think our sexuality is not a conscious choice) - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J461v03n02_05 Children in lesbian families felt less parental pressure to conform to gender stereotypes, were less likely to experience their own gender as superior and were more likely to be uncertain about future heterosexual romantic involvement. No differences were found on psychosocial adjustment. Gender typicality, gender contentedness and anticipated future heterosexual romantic involvement were significant predictors of psychosocial adjustment in both family types

And then the 2008 metastudy which reviews most of the available quality literature - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/18/peds.2013-0377 "Analyses revealed statistically significant effect size differences between groups for one of the six outcomes: parent-child relationship. Results confirm previous studies in this current body of literature, suggesting that children raised by same-sex parents fare equally well to children raised by heterosexual parents"

The only piece I could find refuting the notion that children of same-sex couples suffered no apparent ill-effects was published on the Family Research Council's site and (in their words) 'Tops All Previous Research' without quite explaining why - http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research. Their intepretation is far more damning than the abstract of the paper - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X12000610 - which merely shows children from single-sex families show a broader spread of behaviours as young adults, but not that they are particularly worse off.

Most frequently referenced UK news article on single parent families I could find - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8064435/Children-in-single-parent-families-worse-behaved.html

Broad ranging comment piece that cites many studies - http://family.jrank.org/pages/1577/Single-Parent-Families-Effects-on-Children.html

Academic effects of single-parent homes for children (clue, it's not good) - http://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1044&context=hilltopreview

Intergenerational effects of single-parent families - http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/focus/pdfs/foc113c.pdf
http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research

General consensus (both my personal interpretation, and that of the major meta-analysis cited) is that having children raised by two parents is significantly better than by one,  that the gender balance of those parents makes little to no difference, and that any sort of home parenting is better than being left in state care.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Owlswing

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Re: Oh Dear
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2015, 02:48:51 PM »
Has there been any longitudinal studies carried out as to the psychological effect (+ve, -ve or neutral) on children who have 2 same-sex parents?

Has anything similar been done on children who have only ever had one parent, whether male of female(ie not children who have been through the trauma of parental divorce or the death of one of the parents)?

If there has been, do the two outcomes match in any way?

Yes, there have.

There's this one on same-sex parents and their lack of any discernible affect on children's well-being compared to mixed-sex parents.
http://qz.com/438469/the-science-is-clear-children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-are-at-no-disadvantage/

This one - http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11113-014-9329-6 "Differences that exist in child well-being are largely due to socioeconomic circumstances and family stability."

This one - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15504280802177615 "Extensive data available from more than 30 years of research reveal that children raised by gay and lesbian parents have demonstrated resilience with regard to social, psychological, and sexual health despite economic and legal disparities and social stigma. Many studies have demonstrated that children’s well-being is affected much more by their relationships with their parents, their parents’ sense of competence and security, and the presence of social and economic support for the family than by the gender or the sexual orientation of their parents. Lack of opportunity for same-gender couples to marry adds to families’ stress, which affects the health and welfare of all household members"

This one particularly about lesbian parents - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/126/1/28.abstract "The 17-year-old daughters and sons of lesbian mothers were rated significantly higher in social, school/academic, and total competence and significantly lower in social problems, rule-breaking, aggressive, and externalizing problem behavior than their age-matched counterparts… Within the lesbian family sample, no Child Behavior Checklist differences were found among adolescent offspring who were conceived by known, as-yet-unknown, and permanently unknown donors or between offspring whose mothers were still together and offspring whose mothers had separated… Adolescents who have been reared in lesbian-mother families since birth demonstrate healthy psychological adjustment."

This one which shows how much better it is for children to be  adopted into same-sex homes than it is for them to be left in state care  - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20879687 "Children of same-sex couples are as likely to make normal progress through school as the children of most other family structures… the advantage of heterosexual married couples is mostly due to their higher socioeconomic status. Children of all family types (including children of same-sex couples) are far more likely to make normal progress through school than are children living in group quarters (such as orphanages and shelters)"

This one, with slight support for the idea that gay parents might produce a slightly higher incident of gay/gender-fluid children (interesting for those of us, and I include myself in this group, who think our sexuality is not a conscious choice) - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J461v03n02_05 Children in lesbian families felt less parental pressure to conform to gender stereotypes, were less likely to experience their own gender as superior and were more likely to be uncertain about future heterosexual romantic involvement. No differences were found on psychosocial adjustment. Gender typicality, gender contentedness and anticipated future heterosexual romantic involvement were significant predictors of psychosocial adjustment in both family types

And then the 2008 metastudy which reviews most of the available quality literature - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/18/peds.2013-0377 "Analyses revealed statistically significant effect size differences between groups for one of the six outcomes: parent-child relationship. Results confirm previous studies in this current body of literature, suggesting that children raised by same-sex parents fare equally well to children raised by heterosexual parents"

The only piece I could find refuting the notion that children of same-sex couples suffered no apparent ill-effects was published on the Family Research Council's site and (in their words) 'Tops All Previous Research' without quite explaining why - http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research. Their intepretation is far more damning than the abstract of the paper - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X12000610 - which merely shows children from single-sex families show a broader spread of behaviours as young adults, but not that they are particularly worse off.

Most frequently referenced UK news article on single parent families I could find - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8064435/Children-in-single-parent-families-worse-behaved.html

Broad ranging comment piece that cites many studies - http://family.jrank.org/pages/1577/Single-Parent-Families-Effects-on-Children.html

Academic effects of single-parent homes for children (clue, it's not good) - http://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1044&context=hilltopreview

Intergenerational effects of single-parent families - http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/focus/pdfs/foc113c.pdf
http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research

General consensus (both my personal interpretation, and that of the major meta-analysis cited) is that having children raised by two parents is significantly better than by one,  that the gender balance of those parents makes little to no difference, and that any sort of home parenting is better than being left in state care.

O.

Brilliant and instructive post, Outrider. Congratulations.

This is a wonderfully instructive response to most bigotted attempts to put down same sex and single parent families.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!