Try this one

[ippy]

Just forwarded this article for you all, without any comment.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2015/09/students-forced-to-lead-prayers-and-made-to-attend-mass--the-reality-of-faith-schools-for-non-religious-pupils

ippy

[OH MY WORLD!]

Why are NON FAITH parents forcing their NON FAITH children into FAITH schools? Very poor parenting, I wonder what else these NON FAITH parents are forcing on their children?

[Outrider]

Why are NON FAITH parents forcing their NON FAITH children into FAITH schools? Very poor parenting, I wonder what else these NON FAITH parents are forcing on their children?

In many instances they aren't, the local state schools are faith-based. In theory parents can try to get their child into a school outside of their catchment area, but if the other schools are heavily subscribed that may not be an option, and even if it is there is still the logistical issue of getting the child there: the UK doesn't have the integrated bus system that the US does - I'm not sure what the situation in Canada is.

O.

[Owlswing]

Why are NON FAITH parents forcing their NON FAITH children into FAITH schools? Very poor parenting, I wonder what else these NON FAITH parents are forcing on their children?

In many instances they aren't, the local state schools are faith-based. In theory parents can try to get their child into a school outside of their catchment area, but if the other schools are heavily subscribed that may not be an option, and even if it is there is still the logistical issue of getting the child there: the UK doesn't have the integrated bus system that the US does - I'm not sure what the situation in Canada is.

O.

I will answer for JC your question - the situation in Canada is idyllic! Not like in our pathetic little island that seems to think that it is perfect but Canadians know is rubbish - check JC's various posts for confirmation of this opinion.
 

[OH MY WORLD!]

Here each province is responsible for education. All children, no matter how far out in the country they live, are bused to school. Taxes pay for this. All children can attend the public or the Catholic schools. One picks where there taxes go, public or Catholic school system. Private faith schools are an option, our taxes do not support these schools and the government is not responsible for busing students to the schools. These schools much teach a curriculum approved by Alberta Education.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Why do i need a witch to speak for me? Get over yourself Matty.

[Owlswing]

Why do i need a witch to speak for me? Get over yourself Matty.

This is letting me stew?    

[OH MY WORLD!]

Yes, I stir a stew from time to time and then i eat it.

[Owlswing]

Yes, I stir a stew from time to time and then i eat it.

You ain't eating me buddy!

Gross!

[jeremyp]

Why are NON FAITH parents forcing their NON FAITH children into FAITH schools?

There is a perception that faith schools get good results. 

Very poor parenting, I wonder what else these NON FAITH parents are forcing on their children?

An education. 

I think the "faith schools get good results" meme is a self fulfilling prophecy.  The alleged good schools get the children whose parents are prepared to go above and beyond in the cause of their child's education.  Going above and beyond includes being supportive of the child, helping them out, making them do their homework, actually listening to the advice of the teachers, spending the money for school trips etc.  This means the child gets better results which perpetuates the school's reputation.

At least, that is my hypothesis.  The teachers on here can come and confirm or deny, if they like.

[Hope]

I think the "faith schools get good results" meme is a self fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, it has nothing to do with the faith/non-faith position of the school, and everything to do with the parents and the teachers?  From my experience, the teachers can only go so far; the rest is down to parental support (and a child's innate intelligence)

[ProfessorDavey]

I think the "faith schools get good results" meme is a self fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, it has nothing to do with the faith/non-faith position of the school, and everything to do with the parents and the teachers?  From my experience, the teachers can only go so far; the rest is down to parental support (and a child's innate intelligence)

There has been a lot of research on this.

The upshot is that faith schools on average get higher 'headline' grades, but that is due to their intake, which tends to have a higher prior academic achievement (and is broadly more affluent/middle class etc). So when you look at progress, i.e. taking into account the intake there is no difference between faith schools and non faith schools.

And these effects don't seem to be due the 'faith' element per se, but due to the fact that most faith schools control their own admissions, and the same effect is seen with other schools that also control their own admissions (e.g. academies), but not with the smaller number of VC faith schools that don't control their admissions.

Digging further it seems that once you give a school control over admission, plus you have a big pressure on schools to show great results, there is a biasing in the admissions such that the schools are more likely to admit bright kids from motivated family backgrounds than less affluent kids, less high attaining, including less with SEN. Whether this is overt or covert is a moot point, but many schools who control their own admissions (including many faith schools) have been demonstrated to have broken the overarching code for admissions which is meant to ensure fairness and transparency in the system and prevent 'back door' selection.

[Rhiannon]

Where I live a lot of village schools are church run. If you don't want to send your child to the faith school then they have to be educated away from their neighbours (assuming there are places in other catchment schools) and won't have friends they can hang out with locally. Then there is the issue of transport.

[Udayana]

..
Digging further it seems that once you give a school control over admission, plus you have a big pressure on schools to show great results, there is a biasing in the admissions such that the schools are more likely to admit bright kids from motivated family backgrounds than less affluent kids, less high attaining, including less with SEN. Whether this is overt or covert is a moot point, but many schools who control their own admissions (including many faith schools) have been demonstrated to have broken the overarching code for admissions which is meant to ensure fairness and transparency in the system and prevent 'back door' selection.

But what are we trying to achieve: "fairness and transparency" or the best outcome for each student? Especially as, so far, no one has implemented a system that does ensure fairness and transparency.

[ProfessorDavey]

..
Digging further it seems that once you give a school control over admission, plus you have a big pressure on schools to show great results, there is a biasing in the admissions such that the schools are more likely to admit bright kids from motivated family backgrounds than less affluent kids, less high attaining, including less with SEN. Whether this is overt or covert is a moot point, but many schools who control their own admissions (including many faith schools) have been demonstrated to have broken the overarching code for admissions which is meant to ensure fairness and transparency in the system and prevent 'back door' selection.

But what are we trying to achieve: "fairness and transparency" or the best outcome for each student? Especially as, so far, no one has implemented a system that does ensure fairness and transparency.

I disagree.

It depends what you meant by fairness. In this case the issue is 'school-side' backdoor selection, rather than 'parent-side' selection. So for example certain things aren't supposed to be happening - for example interviews with parents/kids, requiring parents to divulge occupation or marital status but they are, and can be used as a proxy for identifying more middle class, high achieving kids.

On transparency the use of criteria which aren't objective shouldn't happen, but it does. Whether you like it or not distance is a totally objective criterion. But, as an example, many RCC schools 'rank' applications on the basis of 'catholicity' which is a subjective assessment of contribution to the church community. And in that manner it is very easy to see the family where Dad is a top lawyer and helps out the church with legal opinion, and Mum doesn't work (cos Dad is a top lawyer) and has vast amounts of time to help the church as being 'better' than a single parent working 3 jobs merely to make ends meet.

Plus there is the problem of who is running the admissions process. If a school is in charge of making the selection there is always going to be pressure to bend the rules a bit to get in that kids that you think is going to improve your exam results. Where a local authority is doing it, they are doing it for many schools and have no vested interest in placing a top kid in one school rather than another.

[2Corrie]

Just forwarded this article for you all, without any comment.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2015/09/students-forced-to-lead-prayers-and-made-to-attend-mass--the-reality-of-faith-schools-for-non-religious-pupils

ippy

I wouldn't let my Christian children attend mass or pray in a Catholic school.


eta actually I wouldn't send them to one at all!

[OH MY WORLD!]

I don't know the reason things are so bad over your way.  My province is huge, England could fit inside our borders a few times. We have a population of maybe 4 million. Yet all children receive an education and are bused to school if the school is not within walking distance. Why are your children not bused to government run schools? You have a lot more people paying taxes than here and that should cover the cost easily for busing. I grew up 10 miles from the school and in jr high the bus picked me up at the gates to our farm. High school, a private faith school, I was driven to school by my brother and then I drove myself when I reach 16yrs of age.

[OH MY WORLD!]

I hear ya 2Corrie,
I wouldn't enroll my children in a Catholic school to begin with. My taxes, at my request, fund the government public school system.

[Anchorman]

Just forwarded this article for you all, without any comment.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2015/09/students-forced-to-lead-prayers-and-made-to-attend-mass--the-reality-of-faith-schools-for-non-religious-pupils

ippy

I wouldn't let my Christian children attend mass or pray in a Catholic school.


eta actually I wouldn't send them to one at all!

-
Actually, the local RC secondary school (Kilmarnock, Ayrshire) St Josephs Academy, has a Christian Union run by evangelicals (sixth years who are a mixture of Baptists, independent evangeliicals, and a Plymouth Bretheren).
The anti-sectarian policies in Scottish Education means that, while pupils buy into the ethos of a school, they are not compelled to attend that school's acts of worship, or, indeed RE (unless they take it as a subject at standard or higher grade).

[Jack Knave]

Why are NON FAITH parents forcing their NON FAITH children into FAITH schools? Very poor parenting, I wonder what else these NON FAITH parents are forcing on their children?

Though I am against faith schools I agree. If the parents were annoyed by this then they shouldn't have put them in such a school. The other question here is why are non-faith schools so bad that atheist parents have to use faith schools.

[Jack Knave]

I think the "faith schools get good results" meme is a self fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, it has nothing to do with the faith/non-faith position of the school, and everything to do with the parents and the teachers?  From my experience, the teachers can only go so far; the rest is down to parental support (and a child's innate intelligence)

There has been a lot of research on this.

The upshot is that faith schools on average get higher 'headline' grades, but that is due to their intake, which tends to have a higher prior academic achievement (and is broadly more affluent/middle class etc). So when you look at progress, i.e. taking into account the intake there is no difference between faith schools and non faith schools.

And these effects don't seem to be due the 'faith' element per se, but due to the fact that most faith schools control their own admissions, and the same effect is seen with other schools that also control their own admissions (e.g. academies), but not with the smaller number of VC faith schools that don't control their admissions.

Digging further it seems that once you give a school control over admission, plus you have a big pressure on schools to show great results, there is a biasing in the admissions such that the schools are more likely to admit bright kids from motivated family backgrounds than less affluent kids, less high attaining, including less with SEN. Whether this is overt or covert is a moot point, but many schools who control their own admissions (including many faith schools) have been demonstrated to have broken the overarching code for admissions which is meant to ensure fairness and transparency in the system and prevent 'back door' selection.

Good point!

[ippy]

Why are NON FAITH parents forcing their NON FAITH children into FAITH schools? Very poor parenting, I wonder what else these NON FAITH parents are forcing on their children?

Though I am against faith schools I agree. If the parents were annoyed by this then they shouldn't have put them in such a school. The other question here is why are non-faith schools so bad that atheist parents have to use faith schools.

Yes I was going to put that atheist parents often opt to put their children in faith schools because some of them have better results.

It's no good moaning then because there is an element of religion.

When my two were small the faith school was over subscribed, the state school was less popular and it had little to do with the religion of the parents.

In the countryside though sometimes the local school is a faith school and parents have no choice, but that is disappearing now with the disappearance of village schools.

You've  missed the point in Proff D's post Rose, have another read, you might see what it is you have certainly missed.

ippy

[jeremyp]

I think the "faith schools get good results" meme is a self fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, it has nothing to do with the faith/non-faith position of the school

Clearly you have never heard of a self fulfilling prophecy. 

It starts from the possibly erroneous proposition that "faith schools are good schools" which may or may not be true of any particular faith school.  Thus it has everything to do with the fact that it is a faith school and nothing to do with the quality of teaching.

From my experience, the teachers can only go so far; the rest is down to parental support (and a child's innate intelligence)

I agree, and that is what makes the prophecy self fulfilling.  The perception that a faith school is good creates demand for places and this selects for the parents most determined that their children should get the best available eduction.

Was going to correct eduction, but decided the irony of misspelling it is more fun.