Author Topic: 'There Is Nothing In The World A Person Has More Right To Than Their Own Life'  (Read 10558 times)

Keith Maitland

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I just saw this passage:

Quote
"Humans are hedonic creatures, in addition to calculative creatures. That is not to say we are solely motivated by pleasure and pain, but the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain, does explain a great deal of our behaviour. Thus, we (some more than others) have the ability to figure out whether our future likely has more pleasure and less pain in store for us, or more pain and less pleasure. If our future is found wanting (likely, to be wanting), and, being self-conscious and conscientious creatures, having an awareness of life and death and all that these processes likely entail (life = presence of experiences both positive and negative, death = absence of experiences both positive and negative), some of us, especially the more hedonic among us, may decide that no experience is better than to continue experiencing a life of consecutive and consistent disappointments, hardships, anguish and dread"

Question:

Does anyone here strongly disagree with this?

OH MY WORLD!

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Jim Jones convinced over 900 people that drinking the poison punch and dying would be less painful than to continue living. He kept telling them to be quiet, stop crying, stop the children screaming and just drink it and die with dignity.

Shaker

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I for one am in full agreement with it, Keith, and would argue that when push comes to shove so are the majority of people. Consider assisted suicide, the right to which is supported by the vast majority of the population (and is being debated in Parliament on Friday, I learned this morning). This is the most direct example of people believing that death is preferable to a foreseen negative future of physical pain and emotional anguish. By far the greater bulk of people thus believe that there are, literally, fates worse than death. This bit:

Quote
If our future is found wanting (likely, to be wanting) [...] some of us, especially the more hedonic among us, may decide that no experience is better than to continue experiencing a life of consecutive and consistent disappointments, hardships, anguish and dread.

is quite right.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:40:04 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Keith Maitland

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Shaker,

But do you believe those who have treatment-refractory depression and anxiety should have the right to choose to die?

Sriram

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The tendency to think of life as merely about balancing pleasure and pain, is obviously incorrect. That is why traditionally...all over the world...the focus has been not to indulge our needs but to discipline them.

The 'happiness' from pleasure seeking is often the source of much of our pain. Real happiness is from controlling our needs.  One who has no needs is truly happy.....not the one seeking to indulge his needs.   
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 08:09:54 AM by Sriram »

floo

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A person should have the absolute right to terminate their life, with help if necessary, if they are terminally ill.

Outrider

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The tendency to think of life as merely about balancing pleasure and pain, is obviously incorrect. That is why traditionally...all over the world...the focus has been not to indulge our needs but to discipline them.

In what way is that 'obvious'? My life is an attempt to maximise my enjoyment of my life - sometimes I'm aware enough that there will be short-term sacrifices for long-term gain, but the goal is happiness, pleasure, enjoyment...

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The 'happiness' from pleasure seeking is often the source of much of our pain. Real happiness is from controlling our needs.  One who has no needs is truly happy.....not the one seeking to indulge his needs.

Your happiness might come from 'controlling your needs', I'm not sure mine does. I don't drink because I don't enjoy it, but I don't derive pleasure from not drinking. On the other hand, I do like a good pie - I limit how many pies I eat in the short term in order that I can enjoy more of them in the long term, but I don't derive my happiness from limiting my number of pies, I derive my happiness from the pies I do eat.

And tomorrow, with good fortune, I will continue to do so.

O.
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Outrider

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I for one am in full agreement with it, Keith, and would argue that when push comes to shove so are the majority of people. Consider assisted suicide, the right to which is supported by the vast majority of the population (and is being debated in Parliament on Friday, I learned this morning). This is the most direct example of people believing that death is preferable to a foreseen negative future of physical pain and emotional anguish. By far the greater bulk of people thus believe that there are, literally, fates worse than death. This bit:

Quote
If our future is found wanting (likely, to be wanting) [...] some of us, especially the more hedonic among us, may decide that no experience is better than to continue experiencing a life of consecutive and consistent disappointments, hardships, anguish and dread.

is quite right.

Yes I thought you might be, and I for one object to your willingness to accept and apparently encourage others or at least support others choice that might be to do away with themselves when going through a particularly dark part of their life.

Some people suffer terrible depression where they no longer want to live, but they do come through the black tunnel.
Once they have pulled through it, life becomes worth living again.
I suspect you would give them the wrong sort of support.

I think you rate as " dangerous "

Your attitude definately does.

I wouldn't want to put you near any depressed person.

You might be compassionate in your attitude to animals but your attitude to people is awful.

It's a difficult area - on the one hand, the concept of an individual having the freedom to control their own destiny includes, by definition, the giving them some sort of control over when and how they die, if they choose.

Informed consent becomes problematic when conditions like depression come in - on the one hand, regardless of the source of their depression, if their long-term prospect is for an unhappy life, what right do we have to compel them to continue it? On the other hand, someone under the 'influence' of a medical condition could be considered not to have the capacity to make a rational judgment. Does depression so influence someone's faculties that they can't make a rational judgment?

As someone with a condition that warrants a medical diagnosis but who considers himself to be perfectly capable of self-determination, I'm well aware that our understanding of psychology is in its infancy, and it's therefore a minefield when it comes to using that information to determine policy that will apply to everyone.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Rhiannon

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Yes, I know I can't think rationally when I experience extreme physical pain. If needing to be 'rational' is needed for assisted dying then I will be stuck suffering.

I've known a handful of people with depression who have never known anything else. That they are still around for me to have met is a triumph of bravery and compassion (usually for their loved ones) on their part. For them there is no tunnel to come out of because they never went into one. But something keeps them going. Very often it is the small things that matter and we only need one day, then the next, and sunshine, or birdsong, or pies are just too good to leave behind.

Shaker

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Shaker,

But do you believe those who have treatment-refractory depression and anxiety should have the right to choose to die?
Yes. No question.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Presumably Keith suffers from

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/777190

Treatment refractory depression.

If you encourage him to end it all I am going to start objecting to the mods because I don't think it is appropriate.

Everyone can see Keith has a problem by his posts.
Nobody is "encouraging" Keith or indeed anyone else to do anything, you histrionic poltroon. We - well, some of us are at any rate - engaging in a discussion.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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It's a difficult area - on the one hand, the concept of an individual having the freedom to control their own destiny includes, by definition, the giving them some sort of control over when and how they die, if they choose.

Informed consent becomes problematic when conditions like depression come in - on the one hand, regardless of the source of their depression, if their long-term prospect is for an unhappy life, what right do we have to compel them to continue it?
None. In the words of Horace (paraphrased, but only slightly), compelling somebody to stay alive who wants to die is equally bad as killing somebody who wants to live. Murder is regarded universally as the most serious of crimes - why not the converse?

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On the other hand, someone under the 'influence' of a medical condition could be considered not to have the capacity to make a rational judgment. Does depression so influence someone's faculties that they can't make a rational judgment?
Except in those rare cases of psychotic depression, no. Depression is a disorder of affect, not reality-testing (in the way that schizophrenia is). And then there's the well-attested phenomenon of depressive realism, where people with mild to moderate depression actually seem to have a more realistic appraisal of outcomes than more sunny-natured people.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201206/depressive-realism

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2006/nov/25/healthandwellbeing.features1
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 11:12:46 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Presumably Keith suffers from

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/777190

Treatment refractory depression.

If you encourage him to end it all I am going to start objecting to the mods because I don't think it is appropriate.

Everyone can see Keith has a problem by his posts.

Well I can't see it - and, moreover, I think it is seriously silly for an unqualified person to attempt to diagnose mental health issues by reading forum posts.

Furthermore, since Keith's OP just asks for comments on the quote he posted I can't see any justification for raising anything personal regarding Keith. 

Udayana

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I'm mostly with the Buddhists and Jains on this.

Life arises out of desire.
If you are free of desire it's of no consequence

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-33998688

 "Death was not the opposite of life," he wrote. "It was already here, within my being, it had always been here, and no struggle would permit me to forget that."

No pies though.

Sometimes i prefer the Eagles:

"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_California

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Shaker

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Well I can't see it - and, moreover, I think it is seriously silly for an unqualified person to attempt to diagnose mental health issues by reading forum posts.

Furthermore, since Keith's OP just asks for comments on the quote he posted I can't see any justification for raising anything personal regarding Keith.
Quite.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Outrider

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Life arises out of desire.

I'm pretty sure, in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, that my life arose out of my parents' boinky-boinky - presumably that's based on their desire for each other, but that's not what I interpret the intent of your phrase to be. I had not intent to live, as before my life I was incapable of intent - indeed, before my life, the concept of me was nonsensical.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Shaker

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I'm pretty sure, in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, that my life arose out of my parents' boinky-boinky
Oh, for goodness' sake, we're all adults here, let's dispense with the euphemisms please and let's at least use the proper term - bom chicka wah wah.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Outrider

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I'm pretty sure, in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, that my life arose out of my parents' boinky-boinky
Oh, for goodness' sake, we're all adults here, let's dispense with the euphemisms please and let's at least use the proper term - bom chicka wah wah.

Early 70's, Shaker, whilst I'm sure 'bom chicka wah wah' was possible, it certainly wasn't widespread by then, that was only popularised in the late 70's American cop shows :)

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

floo

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Presumably Keith suffers from

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/777190

Treatment refractory depression.

If you encourage him to end it all I am going to start objecting to the mods because I don't think it is appropriate.

Everyone can see Keith has a problem by his posts.

What a silly post, no one is encouraging Keith to end it all! ::)

Shaker

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Presumably Keith suffers from

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/777190

Treatment refractory depression.

If you encourage him to end it all I am going to start objecting to the mods because I don't think it is appropriate.

Everyone can see Keith has a problem by his posts.

What a silly post, no one is encouraging Keith to end it all! ::)
Quite. I pointed this out as did Gordon. But Rose needs to fulfil her role as self-appointed nanny of the forum every once in a while.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Udayana

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Life arises out of desire.

I'm pretty sure, in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, that my life arose out of my parents' boinky-boinky - presumably that's based on their desire for each other, but that's not what I interpret the intent of your phrase to be. I had not intent to live, as before my life I was incapable of intent - indeed, before my life, the concept of me was nonsensical.

O.

That is true - you are a recombination and expression of their DNA, a result of their desire and infused with the same. When it's eventually sated, there is nothing left except a small increase in entropy.

Of-course it is not possible to exist before you exist or after you cease existing.

In the meantime  ... "we are all prisoners here, of our own device".

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

floo

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Presumably Keith suffers from

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/777190

Treatment refractory depression.

If you encourage him to end it all I am going to start objecting to the mods because I don't think it is appropriate.

Everyone can see Keith has a problem by his posts.

What a silly post, no one is encouraging Keith to end it all! ::)
Quite. I pointed this out as did Gordon. But Rose needs to fulfil her role as self-appointed nanny of the forum every once in a while.

 ;D

OH MY WORLD!

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Shaker is very pro death industry.

I have a problem with the pro suicide nutters considering the number of people who have attempted suicide and having received medical aid in time. Later were thankful their attempts failed. I thank God for those that save these broken people on a daily basis.

Shaker

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Shaker is very pro death industry.
The only death industry of which I'm aware is the animal-slaughtering industry, and I'm very much against that.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Keith Maitland

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Rose,

Keith

We don't know much about you, but suspect you have family that love you and are worried about you.

I appreciate your concern, but honestly, I am fine...  :)