Author Topic: 'There Is Nothing In The World A Person Has More Right To Than Their Own Life'  (Read 10545 times)

Keith Maitland

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Shaker and others,

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And then there's the well-attested phenomenon of depressive realism, where people with mild to moderate depression actually seem to have a more realistic appraisal of outcomes than more sunny-natured people.

Oh absolutely... this needs to be highlighted more often.

One more question:

Would you also endorse the following views or is too radical?

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I feel it is a basic human right to die with dignity at a time of one’s choosing, REGARDLESS of circumstances, situation or medical condition. To this end I believe that Dignitas style clinics should be made available for all those who need them in as many locations as necessary.

At present this right is denied to so many thousands of suffering individuals purely to satisfy the whims of a religious and natalist driven orthodoxy. If we do not have rights over our own bodies, then we do not have any rights at all. In my view it is unforgivable keeping someone alive against their will and who no longer wants to be here. Society condemns so many to die alone in agony, to die from very violent deaths or continue living in pain from botched suicide attempts. It is a simple enough request to have drugs like Nembutal (Pentobarbital) readily made available, to aid a peaceful and dignified exit from this world. And not to have Big Brother dictating to us what is in our best interests. We are all adults and capable of making life (and death) choices for ourselves.

So I now suggest there is an immediate change in the law to allow not only assisted suicide for those who desire it, but also drugs like Nembutal to be made available on prescription for the purposes of ending life. Suicide is not illegal and should be made much easier to carry out, without incurring discrimination, blame, stigma or criminality of any kind. It is indeed the human rights issue of the 21st Century.

The pieces of sh*t running our societies are generally smart enough to know that keeping a maximum number of people breathing isn't a goddamn moral issue, as they pretend it is when pandering to the majority, but a matter of maximizing the product (soldiers, farmers, tax payers) of the state.

Even a kid dying of cancer represents a sweet profit.

Profit and power. It's the reason why even the most liberal governments will never fully decriminalize suicide.





Shaker

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Quote
One more question:

Would you also endorse the following views or is too radical?
Yes, I fully agree with the substance of the quote - the first two paragraphs express my sentiments in a nutshell, as does the title of this thread which I recognise as a quotation from Schopenhauer - although not wholly with its conclusion as to why. I don't think it has anything to do with profit per se (after all, living people cost money and sick living people cost a great deal of money). The anti-choicers are driven by power, however; the power they can exert over other people and what they do. The paternalism of the anti-choicers is everywhere, seeking to regulate what foods people eat and how much, how much they drink, their sexual behaviour, what risks they're allowed to take with their own lives (joining the armed forces and skydiving are OK; choosing to drive alone in a car without a seatbelt is not OK. How does that work again?) and a million other things great and small. This sort of paternalism draws its energy from treating competent consenting adults as rather dim and irresponsible children who have to be told what to do and how to live - and die - because the paternalists know better how to live somebody else's life for them better than the somebody elses ever could. In Kant's terms it's treating people as means and not as ends in themselves, by denying them the freedom to exercise their choices; to use a timely analogy today, as subjects of a monarch and not citizens of a republic.

I am dubious to say the very least about the existence of free will - while I don't outright deny it since I have no conclusive grounds for doing so, neuroscience is increasingly coming to suggest that it's an illusion. Nevertheless, as I believe torridon (apologies if wrong) wrote fairly recently, until and unless we reach the point where free will is definitively shown to be illusory, we (sometimes) act as though we possess free will. While that remains the case I think it's important to respect people's choices, not only if we disagree with them but especially and particularly when we disagree with them. It's fundamental to my idea of and treatment of human beings that competent consenting adults must be treated as such. People own themselves.

I read John Stuart Mill's On Liberty at a tender age and never recovered; it was the one text that made me a die-hard libertarian. (In the strict philosophical sense, more usually associated with British English rather than current American English where it means something vastly different, which makes it a problematic term to use nowadays). Mill wrote:

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... the individual is not accountable to society for his actions, in so far as these concern the interests of no person but himself. Advice, instruction, persuasion, and avoidance by other people, if thought necessary by them for their own good, are the only measures by which society can justifiably express its dislike or disapprobation of his conduct [...] the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection [...] the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right [...] The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

It's a stance from which I've never been given any reason to waver and many reasons to cling to all the more securely.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 08:00:51 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Outrider

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Would you also endorse the following views or is too radical?

Quote
I feel it is a basic human right to die with dignity at a time of one’s choosing, REGARDLESS of circumstances, situation or medical condition. To this end I believe that Dignitas style clinics should be made available for all those who need them in as many locations as necessary.

At present this right is denied to so many thousands of suffering individuals purely to satisfy the whims of a religious and natalist driven orthodoxy. If we do not have rights over our own bodies, then we do not have any rights at all. In my view it is unforgivable keeping someone alive against their will and who no longer wants to be here. Society condemns so many to die alone in agony, to die from very violent deaths or continue living in pain from botched suicide attempts. It is a simple enough request to have drugs like Nembutal (Pentobarbital) readily made available, to aid a peaceful and dignified exit from this world. And not to have Big Brother dictating to us what is in our best interests. We are all adults and capable of making life (and death) choices for ourselves.

So I now suggest there is an immediate change in the law to allow not only assisted suicide for those who desire it, but also drugs like Nembutal to be made available on prescription for the purposes of ending life. Suicide is not illegal and should be made much easier to carry out, without incurring discrimination, blame, stigma or criminality of any kind. It is indeed the human rights issue of the 21st Century.

The pieces of sh*t running our societies are generally smart enough to know that keeping a maximum number of people breathing isn't a goddamn moral issue, as they pretend it is when pandering to the majority, but a matter of maximizing the product (soldiers, farmers, tax payers) of the state.

Even a kid dying of cancer represents a sweet profit.

Profit and power. It's the reason why even the most liberal governments will never fully decriminalize suicide.

I'd agree with a wider provision of the clinics, certainly, and with the underlying principle that people have the right to decide for themselves when they wish to go, but I'd disagree that people's motivation for not wanting the clinics is either religious oppression or profit. Yes, some people are religiously motivated in part to stand up against the idea of suicide, but the ultimate motivation for them is that they think life is more precious than happiness - I don't agree, but I understand.

O.
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Shaker

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I'd agree with a wider provision of the clinics, certainly, and with the underlying principle that people have the right to decide for themselves when they wish to go, but I'd disagree that people's motivation for not wanting the clinics is either religious oppression or profit. Yes, some people are religiously motivated in part to stand up against the idea of suicide, but the ultimate motivation for them is that they think life is more precious than happiness
A couple of things present themselves:

One is that we're dealing not with happy people but unhappy ones and, far too often, some truly, desperately, grimly, agonisingly unhappy ones - people with, say, terminal cancer are not noted for doing cartwheels of joy about their state.

The second is, to me, the most obnoxious thing of all: it's always about what certain people think is right for other people, i.e. not themselves but other people with different ideas and opinions on life and death. A.C Grayling is far from the only person to point out that the standard slogan of every paternalist, every censor, there has ever been is: "I don't like it therefore you shouldn't be able to do/see/read it."
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 08:53:07 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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I believe you do support all sorts of death industries Shaker.
So what about the people who are thankful that help arrived in time and they survived their suicide attempts, what about the ones that didn't get that chance.

Anchorman

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I believe you do support all sorts of death industries Shaker.


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isn't that a bit emotive, JC? I'm just back from visiting a very dear friend in hellish agony - she really, really wants to die.
I wish I had the guts to help her.
All the platitudes and counselling sessions are over - she knows there is no remission from her hellish state of living - none whatsoever. Every hour is a torment for her, and the morphine is not working, The medics say she has a few months left of this bedridden nightmare.
And she's Christian.
When the prayers don't work, and her throat's dry with screaming, what am I supposed to do....smile and say 'Hod loves you'. when I really want to help her end her misery?

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So what about the people who are thankful that help arrived in time and they survived their suicide attempts, what about the ones that didn't get that chance.


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Good for them.
That doesn't help those who are totally sane but cannot stand the living nightmare they are in, does it?
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Shaker

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I believe you do support all sorts of death industries Shaker.
What you believe and what is actually the case are usually at odds, as here.
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So what about the people who are thankful that help arrived in time and they survived their suicide attempts
If we're playing the whatabout game, what about the ones who survived and are not glad to have done so? For the record I have no idea as to the relative proportions of each - maybe there's a survey or a study on this somewhere - but we can take it as read that both groups exist.
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what about the ones that didn't get that chance.
They're dead, I assume.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 01:29:02 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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That two people agree on a subjective statement is a sub part is the ad populum, the argumentum ad duum.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 07:42:08 AM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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If you think he is some death industry supporter, u suggest you should be able to explain the term and cite something of his in support

Nearly Sane

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One could just as easily argue that JC then is in the inflicting pain industry. Though we're one to do so, it would simply be as fatuous as the death industry bit on Shaker. I have seen nothing in Shaker's posts that indicate not having a duty of care, it is simply informed by his belief in individual rights.

This is not a subject with a simple solution as people are aiming for the best outcome without it being indicative that because they disagree with you that they are some mad murderer or someone who gers their jollies from people in pain.

Nearly Sane

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Shaker,

But do you believe those who have treatment-refractory depression and anxiety should have the right to choose to die?
Yes. No question.

NS

Here is a good example as is post 2

I modified my post above yours, to specify exactly why he comes across that way.

He doesn't seem to acknowledge that a person can be vunerable and mental health experts have a duty of care.

Nope, it is his opinion that that is the duty of care.. To take your approach and JC's, your attitude could be characterised as supporting people being kept in suffering. As already stated this would be fatuous.

Nearly Sane

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Yes, the line is hard to define. However, you are merely caricaturing, or rather joining in the caricaturing with JC, of Shaker's views. He sees the individual's right as paramount. You do not. Argue against the position, rather than this indulgent death industry nonsense.

Outrider

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A couple of things present themselves:

One is that we're dealing not with happy people but unhappy ones and, far too often, some truly, desperately, grimly, agonisingly unhappy ones - people with, say, terminal cancer are not noted for doing cartwheels of joy about their state.

The second is, to me, the most obnoxious thing of all: it's always about what certain people think is right for other people, i.e. not themselves but other people with different ideas and opinions on life and death. A.C Grayling is far from the only person to point out that the standard slogan of every paternalist, every censor, there has ever been is: "I don't like it therefore you shouldn't be able to do/see/read it."

Agreed. That doesn't mean, though, that:

a) everyone who opposes assisted suicide measures is religious,
b) all the religious people who oppose assisted suicide do so solely because of a religious tenet.

Yes, they are presuming that someone else's opinion should match their own that life is the most important concern, above all others. In some - perhaps many - instances that can be because of religious belief, but it's also possible to maintain a 'whilst there's life there's hope' mentality without belief.

I'd agree that imposing their presumption to deny people free choice is wrong, but I can also appreciate that they can be genuinely concerned about the pressures they feel people would be put under (which I think are grossly over-stated).

O.
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Rhiannon

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Actually everyone has the right to die. What we don't have is the right to ask for assistance in that, either through purchasing the necessary means or through direct help from a third party. This means suicide is hit and miss and often agonising. And of course the greatest injustice is that those unable to care for themselves - those under the care of the medical profession, in nursing homes, the bedridden - can't even use that way out.

I think one of the characteristics of religious belief is that there is always hope. Hope for remission, cure, a brighter tomorrow, peace on earth and goodwill to all men. That's not necessarily a bad thing - Horsethorn and I once had a discussion on how that was the message of LOTR - but we only have the present moment and in this present moment there is much suffering. And joy, happiness, meaning and ordinariness, for people who are dying, rape victims, the less able, anyone. It isn't all crap. But for some it has gone too far in this moment and they do not want to trust to unrealistic hope for things that won't come. And it is shameful that we do not have the framework to help them.

My only reservation is that we must not allow the authorities to make assumptions over quality of life and assisted dying - plenty of people live full and rewarding lives in the very situations most of us think would be intolerable. There has to be a robust opt-in system that is regularly reviewed and open to change at any time. But I can see no reason why that opt-in shouldn't be open to people whose depression cannot be treated. Frankly severe depression scares the shit out of me and I thank my lucky stars I've never experienced it.

Shaker doesn't support the 'death industry' (whatever that is) and he isn't encouraging anything other than debate. But there are disturbed people out there who will encourage self harm and suicide and you can find them at the click of a button. It'd be a lot better if we had trained people available who can point people in the direction of where to go to find that hope and meaning, to stay alive, but also where to go when things are over.

Leonard James

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Actually everyone has the right to die. What we don't have is the right to ask for assistance in that, either through purchasing the necessary means or through direct help from a third party. This means suicide is hit and miss and often agonising. And of course the greatest injustice is that those unable to care for themselves - those under the care of the medical profession, in nursing homes, the bedridden - can't even use that way out.

I think one of the characteristics of religious belief is that there is always hope. Hope for remission, cure, a brighter tomorrow, peace on earth and goodwill to all men. That's not necessarily a bad thing - Horsethorn and I once had a discussion on how that was the message of LOTR - but we only have the present moment and in this present moment there is much suffering. And joy, happiness, meaning and ordinariness, for people who are dying, rape victims, the less able, anyone. It isn't all crap. But for some it has gone too far in this moment and they do not want to trust to unrealistic hope for things that won't come. And it is shameful that we do not have the framework to help them.

My only reservation is that we must not allow the authorities to make assumptions over quality of life and assisted dying - plenty of people live full and rewarding lives in the very situations most of us think would be intolerable. There has to be a robust opt-in system that is regularly reviewed and open to change at any time. But I can see no reason why that opt-in shouldn't be open to people whose depression cannot be treated. Frankly severe depression scares the shit out of me and I thank my lucky stars I've never experienced it.

Shaker doesn't support the 'death industry' (whatever that is) and he isn't encouraging anything other than debate. But there are disturbed people out there who will encourage self harm and suicide and you can find them at the click of a button. It'd be a lot better if we had trained people available who can point people in the direction of where to go to find that hope and meaning, to stay alive, but also where to go when things are over.

I fully agree. What puzzles me is why dissenters can't see the blindingly obvious. Surely religion and culture can't overcome empathy and love for others to such an extent? Is there some other hidden reason for it?

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Having been on that side of the fence, Len, I think it is a mix of hope, fear and utter belief that only God gets to choose our comings and goings from this world.

Leonard James

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Having been on that side of the fence, Len, I think it is a mix of hope, fear and utter belief that only God gets to choose our comings and goings from this world.

I can understand that, but we seem to be surrounded by people who are not in that position and yet still oppose the right to end life.

Shaker

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Agreed. That doesn't mean, though, that:

a) everyone who opposes assisted suicide measures is religious

No, of course not - clearly false, and not something I would ever state.

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b) all the religious people who oppose assisted suicide do so solely because of a religious tenet.

Yes, they are presuming that someone else's opinion should match their own that life is the most important concern, above all others. In some - perhaps many - instances that can be because of religious belief, but it's also possible to maintain a 'whilst there's life there's hope' mentality without belief.

I'd agree that imposing their presumption to deny people free choice is wrong, but I can also appreciate that they can be genuinely concerned about the pressures they feel people would be put under (which I think are grossly over-stated).
For the record I don't doubt for a second that the concerns most have about AS - pressure, slippery slopes and what have you - are entirely genuine amongst the vast majority. No question. But a couple of things spring to mind in this regard.

The first is that we're not dealing with unknown matters here. We don't have to guess about what the implications and ramifications might be. While, alas, not numerous, there are several territories around the world where AS has been in place for some years now, and the evidence that comes from those places is that the safeguards in place to ensure that the process does what it's intended to do not only work but work well.

The second point is worse - it's that the undoubtedly genuine concern exhibited by those who oppose AS is directly responsible for causing untold amounts of quite atrocious suffering. Palliative care for the terminally ill at its best is great but far from perfect; and that's at its best, which all too often it isn't. Like you, I think the standard tropes of those who oppose AS are grotesquely exaggerated to the extent that people are being compelled to endure what can only be called living nightmares. They are also, sometimes, bordering on the frankly delusional, especially the "Where there's life there's hope" one - I'm afraid sometimes there isn't, and all that can be done is to ensure that people die as easily as possible when they wouldn't otherwise.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Anchorman

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Having been on that side of the fence, Len, I think it is a mix of hope, fear and utter belief that only God gets to choose our comings and goings from this world.

I can understand that, but we seem to be surrounded by people who are not in that position and yet still oppose the right to end life.


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Haud the bus, Len.
As I've already demonstrated on this thread, not all 'religious'  people are opposed to people who. beimng deemed competant to do ao, having the right to end their own lives, when those lives are intolerable.
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Yes, the line is hard to define. However, you are merely caricaturing, or rather joining in the caricaturing with JC, of Shaker's views. He sees the individual's right as paramount. You do not. Argue against the position, rather than this indulgent death industry nonsense.
I think it is interesting that you think that Shaker sees the individual's right as paramount. A while back I argued with Shaker that an individual has a right to genetically alter their sexuality, if the option was ever developed and it actually worked, on the basis that the individual's right to choose their sexuality was paramount, and also that the individual was not losing anything - they still got to have the opportunity to have sexually and emotionally-fulfilling relationships. In fact if a gay person decided to become straight they would potentially have more opportunities since a much larger percentage of the population is straight. Shaker was vehemently opposed to this right, on the grounds that the individual might feel pressured by society to take the option, or might be suffering from depression.

On that basis of pressure from outside or depression, not sure how Shaker justifies the position that ending your life is ok  but changing your sexuality isn't.

I support assisted dying with appropriate safeguards - I think often the reason why we remain alive is due to medical advances rather than our body's ability to naturally stay alive. I certainly don't want someone caring for me for large parts of the day. I have told my family just let me die and that if they feel they will miss me, they will just have to get over it.
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Rhiannon

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I've posted on here before about an acquaintance who has a condition that could cause him to die suddenly, painlessly and without warning. It's operable but the chances of it going wrong are huge and if it does he'll be left paralysed. As he can't face a life of dependency he's opted to live with the condition.

And for this his family have told him he is being selfish.

Leonard James

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Having been on that side of the fence, Len, I think it is a mix of hope, fear and utter belief that only God gets to choose our comings and goings from this world.

I can understand that, but we seem to be surrounded by people who are not in that position and yet still oppose the right to end life.


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Haud the bus, Len.
As I've already demonstrated on this thread, not all 'religious'  people are opposed to people who. beimng deemed competant to do ao, having the right to end their own lives, when those lives are intolerable.

Quite, but I didn't say ALL religious people ... although of those that do, most objections seem to be for religious reasons.

wigginhall

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I remember that the Liverpool Pathway business scared some people, as people were put on it, without being told, without their relatives being told, and various other cock-ups.   It didn't inspire confidence about how these things would be handled, but I'm not against being helped to die in principle.   I think there were controversies about people being deprived of water and food deliberately, and so on, hastening death, without being informed. 
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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I've posted on here before about an acquaintance who has a condition that could cause him to die suddenly, painlessly and without warning. It's operable but the chances of it going wrong are huge and if it does he'll be left paralysed. As he can't face a life of dependency he's opted to live with the condition.

And for this his family have told him he is being selfish.
I'm with him - I'd do the same thing.

In my case, which I know isn't the same for everyone - I'm really lucky to have had a great life, I'm really happy. If I died tomorrow, it would be fine. I feel a bit bad thinking about the people who would miss me, but I remember my grandmother dying suddenly when I was a kid - 9 yrs old - she lived with us and brought me up from when I was a baby as both my parents worked and in fact my parents left the country when I was 6 months old and I was left in my grandmother's care and didn't see them again for about a year. I remember the pain of losing her - it actually felt like something tore in my heart as I sat on her bed the next morning and wept.

But the pain lessens and you move on and the person remains in your memories - and I have told my kids that death and pain are part of life and losing someone you love is a lot less painful than other things they might potentially go through, and they will have to find ways to cope and manage and be happy if they were ever in that situation of losing me, because I definitely don't want to be alive and physically dependent on someone else.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Shaker

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I've posted on here before about an acquaintance who has a condition that could cause him to die suddenly, painlessly and without warning. It's operable but the chances of it going wrong are huge and if it does he'll be left paralysed. As he can't face a life of dependency he's opted to live with the condition.

And for this his family have told him he is being selfish.
On the basis of what is written I strongly suspect I know what condition you're referring to.

How do the family get away with calling him selfish? Selfish for not having the operation, you mean?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.