Author Topic: Who would be your Jonah?  (Read 10620 times)

Outrider

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2015, 12:28:36 PM »
As the story of Jonah was only a myth, one can puts one's own spin on it! ;D
Not really, Floo, as the story is illustrating a point about obedience of instructions.  Furthermore, there is nothing within the story that points to it having been a historical event.

Yeah, Floo, what were you thinking considering the possibility that this supernaturally influenced fairy-tale devoid of any historical corroboration was alleging historicity just because other indistinguishably supernaturally influenced fairy-tales devoid of historical corroboration are allegedly historical events.

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Hope

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2015, 12:45:02 PM »
Yeah, Floo, what were you thinking considering the possibility that this supernaturally influenced fairy-tale devoid of any historical corroboration was alleging historicity just because other indistinguishably supernaturally influenced fairy-tales devoid of historical corroboration are allegedly historical events.

O.
Well, O, there are linguistic markers within the original Hebrew that strongly suggest that it is an allegorical story, as opposed to a historical one.  Those markers or their equivalents are missing in some of the other Biblical stories.
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jeremyp

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2015, 12:46:50 PM »
Yeah, Floo, what were you thinking considering the possibility that this supernaturally influenced fairy-tale devoid of any historical corroboration was alleging historicity just because other indistinguishably supernaturally influenced fairy-tales devoid of historical corroboration are allegedly historical events.

O.
Well, O, there are linguistic markers within the original Hebrew that strongly suggest that it is an allegorical story, as opposed to a historical one.  Those markers or their equivalents are missing in some of the other Biblical stories.

What are these markers?  What are the equivalent markers in Koine Greek?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2015, 12:50:38 PM »
Yeah, Floo, what were you thinking considering the possibility that this supernaturally influenced fairy-tale devoid of any historical corroboration was alleging historicity just because other indistinguishably supernaturally influenced fairy-tales devoid of historical corroboration are allegedly historical events.

O.
Well, O, there are linguistic markers within the original Hebrew that strongly suggest that it is an allegorical story, as opposed to a historical one.  Those markers or their equivalents are missing in some of the other Biblical stories.
Lets face it most bible stories aren't historical as we would understand it but allegorical.

And as soon as a story exists its original allegorical meaning is likely to evolve over time, largely to align with the current time and to suit the needs of the person using the story to make an allegorical point.

Hope

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2015, 12:53:00 PM »
What point someone takes from a story is up to them.
I would disagree, PD.  If a story is written with certain linguistic and genre-specific markers within it, that indicate that it is, say - poetic, even if only blank verse - is it legitimate for someone 50/100/1000/5000 years later to interpret it as a historic record of an event?

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So people have been putting their own 'spin' on bible stories for centuries and will continue to do so to suit a variety of purposes.
Which is part of the value of Biblical criticism.  We can see where and what spin has been put on any given story, and dig down into the true story.
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Hope

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2015, 12:57:04 PM »
Lets face it most bible stories aren't historical as we would understand it but allegorical.
and thankfully the scientific field of linguistics can show which are the former and which the latter.

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And as soon as a story exists its original allegorical meaning is likely to evolve over time, largely to align with the current time and to suit the needs of the person using the story to make an allegorical point.
That may happen in your field of expertise, but not necessarily elsewhere.  ;)

Interestingly, John's Gospel seems to have been written to combat just this kind of treatment that occurred within the first 50-60 years of the church
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2015, 01:01:33 PM »
What point someone takes from a story is up to them.
I would disagree, PD.  If a story is written with certain linguistic and genre-specific markers within it, that indicate that it is, say - poetic, even if only blank verse - is it legitimate for someone 50/100/1000/5000 years later to interpret it as a historic record of an event?
I don't think the issue is whether we see bible stories as historical events (again in the way we would understand 'historical') - we happily accept that bible stories aren't historical in that manner. And I think I'd be much more consistent than you are on that one, also not seeing the stories in the new testament as historical records either, but as stories to embrue faith in a religious position.

So why is it that you seem happy that the myth of Jonah, is just that a story, a myth, albeit perhaps with some historical reference (from thousands of years ago), yet fall to see the resurrection myth as being the same. Seems a touch of double standards don't you think.

So people have been putting their own 'spin' on bible stories for centuries and will continue to do so to suit a variety of purposes.
Which is part of the value of Biblical criticism.  We can see where and what spin has been put on any given story, and dig down into the true story.
Whose it to say that bible criticism (or any other kind of similar 'spin') gets to the true story or takes the meaning away from the original meaning to somewhere else. The only person who can really answer this is the story author themselves, but they aren't available for comment!

Hope

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2015, 01:16:48 PM »
So why is it that you seem happy that the myth of Jonah, is just that a story, a myth, albeit perhaps with some historical reference (from thousands of years ago), yet fall to see the resurrection myth as being the same. Seems a touch of double standards don't you think.
If it's double standards, PD, it's scientifically-based double standards.

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Whose it to say that bible criticism (or any other kind of similar 'spin') gets to the true story or takes the meaning away from the original meaning to somewhere else. The only person who can really answer this is the story author themselves, but they aren't available for comment!
Sorry, PD, but as with many other disciplines there are applied linguists and ordinary ones.  Applied linguistics will be used in studying and researching cultural contexts, historical contexts, literary issues, etc. to discover this kind of thing.
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Shaker

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2015, 01:18:39 PM »
So why is it that you seem happy that the myth of Jonah, is just that a story, a myth, albeit perhaps with some historical reference (from thousands of years ago), yet fall to see the resurrection myth as being the same. Seems a touch of double standards don't you think.
Colossal double standards, but it can't be any other way. Junk the resurrection and they've got nothing left of their religion, just a rather unbalanced ten-a-penny preacher from some obscure backwater of the Roman empire two thousand years ago.
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Hope

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2015, 01:23:31 PM »
Colossal double standards, ...
So, you're quite happy to ditch scientific methodology when it doesn't support your ideas and beliefs?  That really is double standards.
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Shaker

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2015, 01:25:54 PM »
So, you're quite happy to ditch scientific methodology when it doesn't support your ideas and beliefs?  That really is double standards.
It would be, if that were the case, but it isn't.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2015, 01:38:57 PM »
So why is it that you seem happy that the myth of Jonah, is just that a story, a myth, albeit perhaps with some historical reference (from thousands of years ago), yet fall to see the resurrection myth as being the same. Seems a touch of double standards don't you think.
If it's double standards, PD, it's scientifically-based double standards.

Quote
Whose it to say that bible criticism (or any other kind of similar 'spin') gets to the true story or takes the meaning away from the original meaning to somewhere else. The only person who can really answer this is the story author themselves, but they aren't available for comment!
Sorry, PD, but as with many other disciplines there are applied linguists and ordinary ones.  Applied linguistics will be used in studying and researching cultural contexts, historical contexts, literary issues, etc. to discover this kind of thing.
Sorry Hope - ancient documents aren't stamped 'Fiction' and 'Non fiction' or 'Allegorical' or 'Historical' and actually there is massive blurring between the two in each case.

And the notion that an allegory must be embedded in a purely fictional story is also not the case. So there are plenty of allegorical tales, which include some or many fictional elements that also include factual and historical elements too.

So the point is that you cannot assume that if something is not deliberately allegorical that it is necessarily true or historical, nor that the current allegorical 'orthodoxy' from a story is the same as its original meaning.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 01:45:18 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2015, 01:44:16 PM »
Sometimes it's like the author never died at all.

floo

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2015, 01:48:30 PM »
Oh crumbs this thread was meant to be a bit of fun, nothing more! ::)

Hope

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2015, 02:42:54 PM »
Oh crumbs this thread was meant to be a bit of fun, nothing more! ::)
I thought it had remained a bit of fun, Floo.  ;)
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Hope

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2015, 02:48:58 PM »
Sorry Hope - ancient documents aren't stamped 'Fiction' and 'Non fiction' or 'Allegorical' or 'Historical' and actually there is massive blurring between the two in each case.
Yet there are plenty of linguistic means that we use to show these differences; are you saying that ancient writers didn't know about them, or have their own?

Quote
And the notion that an allegory must be embedded in a purely fictional story is also not the case. So there are plenty of allegorical tales, which include some or many fictional elements that also include factual and historical elements too.
And nothing I have said indicates anything other than just that.  For instance, the book of Jonah refers to Nineveh - a historical place.

Quote
So the point is that you cannot assume that if something is not deliberately allegorical that it is necessarily true or historical, nor that the current allegorical 'orthodoxy' from a story is the same as its original meaning.
But if one can trace the meaning of an allegory from close to its origin, then it may well be that you can.  After all, Jonah is within that section of the Tanakh that the Jews regard as prophetic - so not necessarily historical or factual.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 02:53:04 PM by Hope »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2015, 03:14:57 PM »
Sorry Hope - ancient documents aren't stamped 'Fiction' and 'Non fiction' or 'Allegorical' or 'Historical' and actually there is massive blurring between the two in each case.
Yet there are plenty of linguistic means that we use to show these differences; are you saying that ancient writers didn't know about them, or have their own?
But as you have pointed out below these stories weren't necessarily rigidly one or the other.

And the notion that an allegory must be embedded in a purely fictional story is also not the case. So there are plenty of allegorical tales, which include some or many fictional elements that also include factual and historical elements too.
And nothing I have said indicates anything other than just that.  For instance, the book of Jonah refers to Nineveh - a historical place.
Indeed, just as the resurrection story refers to a historical place and perhaps also a historical person, just as Jonah may have been a real person. But that doesn't mean that that in either case the story is historical in full nor partly allegorical which I think is the case in both instances.

So the point is that you cannot assume that if something is not deliberately allegorical that it is necessarily true or historical, nor that the current allegorical 'orthodoxy' from a story is the same as its original meaning.
But if one can trace the meaning of an allegory from close to its origin, then it may well be that you can.  After all, Jonah is within that section of the Tanakh that the Jews regard as prophetic - so not necessarily historical or factual.
But whether a story is thought to be allegorical rather than historical (or vice versa) doesn't mean it is, nor that it was intended to be so by the author. Even if the suggestion of allegory appeared very early (and in the case of the bible we really have no idea what the contemporary readers, and the author actually thought or intended.

As an example it is pretty well an 'accepted' fact that the Narnia stories represent biblical allegory. And this has been a broadly accepted view for decades, so arose within a few years after they were written. Yet C S Lewis always denied this. Now we actually have the recorded view of the author in this case, unlike for the bible yet within no time an accepted view of allegory has arisen that the author denies he intended.

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2015, 03:19:45 PM »
Sorry that your fun time mocking Christ thread went right down the toilet floo.

Shaker

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2015, 03:21:10 PM »
Sorry that your fun time mocking Christ thread went right down the toilet floo.
It didn't.

I was particularly pleased with my off-the-cuff bailing-out gag.
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floo

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2015, 03:30:20 PM »
Sorry that your fun time mocking Christ thread went right down the toilet floo.

Jesus was an ordinary bloke, imo, and maybe he enjoyed a joke as much as he obviously enjoyed his booze! ;D

ippy

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2015, 03:41:57 PM »
Jesus never bails out.

He doesn't need to, if he were to drown he'd be back, can't quite remember something to do with three?

ippy

ippy

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2015, 03:43:34 PM »
Yeah, Floo, what were you thinking considering the possibility that this supernaturally influenced fairy-tale devoid of any historical corroboration was alleging historicity just because other indistinguishably supernaturally influenced fairy-tales devoid of historical corroboration are allegedly historical events.

O.
Well, O, there are linguistic markers within the original Hebrew that strongly suggest that it is an allegorical story, as opposed to a historical one.  Those markers or their equivalents are missing in some of the other Biblical stories.

Yea, yea they would be.

ippy

Rhiannon

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2015, 04:23:48 PM »
Personally I'd keep Jesus in the boat on the basis he'd be the only one I'd want to talk to.

Shaker

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2015, 04:25:37 PM »
Personally I'd keep Jesus in the boat on the basis he'd be the only one I'd want to talk to.
Ah but remember, more or less foregone conclusion as it may be, the new Labour leader hasn't been elected yet  ;)
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Hope

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Re: Who would be your Jonah?
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2015, 05:04:04 PM »
Yea, yea they would be.

ippy
I'm glad you acknowledge that reality, ippy.  :P
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