confusing self-control with freewill.

[Sassy]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

[Alien]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Though I do believe we have free will, I think you are wrong in your sweeping overstatement in your first line.

[ekim]

I not sure why you are persisting with trying to prove the existence of free will.  As a Christian, isn't the choice between 'self will', which is driven by the past and future considerations and therefore not free, and obeying God's Will in the present, which appears to be even less free.

[Maeght]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

No.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.

Ummh .. . right ....

Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice.

Do you want to rewrite that?

Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

In your opinion.

[ippy]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Go to Boots the chemist an get one of their seven day pill boxes Sass, it so easy to forget and you can check to see if you have forgotten or not, if they're still there you've forgotton them, if they've gone you should be OK. Well you should be OK.

ippy

[floo]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Another giggle contributed by Sass!

[Sassy]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Though I do believe we have free will, I think you are wrong in your sweeping overstatement in your first line.

I believe it is neither 'sweeping' nor is it 'wrong'. Unless of course you can prove they are not confusing lack of self-control with free will.
After all they are claiming freewill does not exist... Are you claiming self-control does not exist.

[Sassy]

I not sure why you are persisting with trying to prove the existence of free will.

Free will is a fact. Not trying to prove what already is a fact.

  As a Christian, isn't the choice between 'self will',

Is 'self-will' controlled by free will or 'self-control'.

which is driven by the past and future considerations

What is driven by past and future considerations.. You mean past and future choices. But how could you know future considerations or choices. Stop repeating things you have not thought out.

Whatever happens in your past does not control your present choices. For whatever happens in your past you still have self-control and you still have the ability to choose whatever way you will.
So I am not sure you are thinking correctly and I believe to inherit other peoples way of thinking be it 'suggestive' or any other way is not an ideal way to go.

and therefore not free, and obeying God's Will in the present, which appears to be even less free.

Again... you have no argument just a jumbled mess which started when you deliberately tried to introduce something NOT from yourself and NOT reasoned out by yourself.

Free will is the ability to choose and your ability is your own. What you allow to affect your decisions is a choice made by yourself.

A person can punch you in the nose. Totally unprovoked and without warning. But ultimately you will make the decision of how to react to that punch using your own free will and self-control.

[Sassy]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

No.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.

Ummh .. . right ....

Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice.

Do you want to rewrite that?

Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

In your opinion.

No evidence to refute what I say and even less ability to make a reasoned reply.
Your choice.... Using your own free will and lack of ability,,,

[Sassy]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Go to Boots the chemist an get one of their seven day pill boxes Sass, it so easy to forget and you can check to see if you have forgotten or not, if they're still there you've forgotton them, if they've gone you should be OK. Well you should be OK.

ippy

Well your reply had nothing to do with a sense of humour.
It had nothing to do with any sensible reasoning...
Just your freewill to post and show everyone how nothing you offer has any value to the thread or the discussion. Well done... Ippy.

[Sassy]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Another giggle contributed by Sass!

Floo,

Your post is-
Ignorance is BLISS in action 

[floo]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Another giggle contributed by Sass!

Floo,

Your post is-
Ignorance is BLISS in action 

And you have superior knowledge do you Sass? Funny not many Christians on this forum see it your way, do they!

[ippy]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Go to Boots the chemist an get one of their seven day pill boxes Sass, it so easy to forget and you can check to see if you have forgotten or not, if they're still there you've forgotton them, if they've gone you should be OK. Well you should be OK.

ippy

Well your reply had nothing to do with a sense of humour.
It had nothing to do with any sensible reasoning...
Just your freewill to post and show everyone how nothing you offer has any value to the thread or the discussion. Well done... Ippy.

It is important to keep up with anything that might keep you on the straight and narrow Sass, I was only trying to help.

ippy

[ekim]

Sass

Is 'self-will' controlled by free will or 'self-control'

It varies depending upon how strongly self willed the individual is as to whether she can e.g. suppress her desires for self righteousness, self importance, self centeredness, self absorption.

What is driven by past and future considerations.. You mean past and future choices. But how could you know future considerations or choices. Stop repeating things you have not thought out.   Whatever happens in your past does not control your present choices. For whatever happens in your past you still have self-control and you still have the ability to choose whatever way you will.
So I am not sure you are thinking correctly and I believe to inherit other peoples way of thinking be it 'suggestive' or any other way is not an ideal way to go.

What I am saying is that 'self will' is driven by the past e.g. one's nature and nurture and by consideration of the future e.g. the desire to repeat whatever enhances the ego driven self will.   A religiously egotistical individual, for instance, is likely to be driven by their particular religious upbringing, say Christian, and will support it by frequently quoting from their scriptures and not from Hindu scriptures.  They become prejudiced and dogmatic and have little control over their self expression and to use your words addressed to me 'keep repeating things they have not thought out', just like a parrot.

Again... you have no argument just a jumbled mess which started when you deliberately tried to introduce something NOT from yourself and NOT reasoned out by yourself.

Are you sure that it isn't you who is in a jumbled mess?  After all, I have only written two sentences and one of those is a question, not an argument.

Free will is the ability to choose and your ability is your own. What you allow to affect your decisions is a choice made by yourself.

I would say that free choice is the ability to choose freely and 'will' is the intension to act or not act upon that choice.  The question is how free is the choice?

A person can punch you in the nose. Totally unprovoked and without warning. But ultimately you will make the decision of how to react to that punch using your own free will and self-control

Not necessarily, the reaction for many is one of fight, flight or freeze, which is shared by the animal world and such an action is unlikely to be a choice but an inbuilt survival reaction.  Do you think the refugees from Syria are choosing to leave or are driven to leave?

You haven't commented upon 'obeying God's Will'.  If you are driven or live by the Will of your God, is your will free then?

[Maeght]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

No.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.

Ummh .. . right ....

Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice.

Do you want to rewrite that?

Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

In your opinion.

No evidence to refute what I say and even less ability to make a reasoned reply.

You keep on thinking that Sassy if it makes you feel better and clever. Yet to see any evidence to back-up what you say or any reasoned replies from you though - only stating things as FACT. Go on - give it a go, see if you can manage it.

[Alien]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Though I do believe we have free will, I think you are wrong in your sweeping overstatement in your first line.

I believe it is neither 'sweeping' nor is it 'wrong'. Unless of course you can prove they are not confusing lack of self-control with free will.
After all they are claiming freewill does not exist... Are you claiming self-control does not exist.

No, I don't need to do anything of the sort. There are three things you stated in your first statement, all of which need to be true for you to be correct.

1) That the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will. Some do, some don't. I don't think Leonard, for example, refuses the idea of free will.
2) That they confuse it with lack of self-control. I've not seen this to be the case. Maybe I missed it though.
3) That the 1) is true because of 2) and I don't see that even if 1) and 2) are correct that 1) is correct because 2) is correct.

[2Corrie]

Does Sassy go along with the Biblical idea that those not born again are 'slaves to sin' I wonder?

[floo]

Does Sassy go along with the Biblical idea that those not born again are 'slaves to sin' I wonder?

What on earth does 'slaves to sin' mean? It seems like  another meaningless cliché.

[Rhiannon]

Just want to say I'm loving ekim's reply above. 

[Alien]

Does Sassy go along with the Biblical idea that those not born again are 'slaves to sin' I wonder?

What on earth does 'slaves to sin' mean? It seems like  another meaningless cliché.

I thought you read your bible each day, floo.

[Brownie]

A good thread!  I understand what Sassy means in her op but feel the post quoted below is more in line with my thinking.

I've never considered free will to mean lack of self control, just about making choices which can be very difficult and involve a fair degree of self control.

I not sure why you are persisting with trying to prove the existence of free will.  As a Christian, isn't the choice between 'self will', which is driven by the past and future considerations and therefore not free, and obeying God's Will in the present, which appears to be even less free.

[2Corrie]

Does Sassy go along with the Biblical idea that those not born again are 'slaves to sin' I wonder?

What on earth does 'slaves to sin' mean? It seems like  another meaningless cliché.

I thought you read your bible each day, floo.

Quite.

[Brownie]

Being a "slave to sin" means reliving your wrongdoings with relish and repeating them at every opportunity. A bit like addiction, sad because anyone who is slave to anything is not really happy, they get a brief high and then it's downhill all the way.

[Sassy]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.
Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

Another giggle contributed by Sass!

Floo,

Your post is-
Ignorance is BLISS in action 

And you have superior knowledge do you Sass? Funny not many Christians on this forum see it your way, do they!

Nothing superior about the truth. And as it is Gods truth then you are not in a position to judge who is right...are you.

[Sassy]

Ekim,


Will have to get back to you on this...Not in a good place right now to give it due consideration it deserves...

Sassy.

Sass

Is 'self-will' controlled by free will or 'self-control'

It varies depending upon how strongly self willed the individual is as to whether she can e.g. suppress her desires for self righteousness, self importance, self centeredness, self absorption.

What is driven by past and future considerations.. You mean past and future choices. But how could you know future considerations or choices. Stop repeating things you have not thought out.   Whatever happens in your past does not control your present choices. For whatever happens in your past you still have self-control and you still have the ability to choose whatever way you will.
So I am not sure you are thinking correctly and I believe to inherit other peoples way of thinking be it 'suggestive' or any other way is not an ideal way to go.

What I am saying is that 'self will' is driven by the past e.g. one's nature and nurture and by consideration of the future e.g. the desire to repeat whatever enhances the ego driven self will.   A religiously egotistical individual, for instance, is likely to be driven by their particular religious upbringing, say Christian, and will support it by frequently quoting from their scriptures and not from Hindu scriptures.  They become prejudiced and dogmatic and have little control over their self expression and to use your words addressed to me 'keep repeating things they have not thought out', just like a parrot.

Again... you have no argument just a jumbled mess which started when you deliberately tried to introduce something NOT from yourself and NOT reasoned out by yourself.

Are you sure that it isn't you who is in a jumbled mess?  After all, I have only written two sentences and one of those is a question, not an argument.

Free will is the ability to choose and your ability is your own. What you allow to affect your decisions is a choice made by yourself.

I would say that free choice is the ability to choose freely and 'will' is the intension to act or not act upon that choice.  The question is how free is the choice?

A person can punch you in the nose. Totally unprovoked and without warning. But ultimately you will make the decision of how to react to that punch using your own free will and self-control

Not necessarily, the reaction for many is one of fight, flight or freeze, which is shared by the animal world and such an action is unlikely to be a choice but an inbuilt survival reaction.  Do you think the refugees from Syria are choosing to leave or are driven to leave?

You haven't commented upon 'obeying God's Will'.  If you are driven or live by the Will of your God, is your will free then?