confusing self-control with freewill.

[floo]

Does Sassy go along with the Biblical idea that those not born again are 'slaves to sin' I wonder?

What on earth does 'slaves to sin' mean? It seems like  another meaningless cliché.

I thought you read your bible each day, floo.

Quite.

Just because I read that flipping book doesn't mean I agree with much of it, or everything that Jesus spouted!

[Outrider]

The reason the unbeliever in God refuses the idea of free will is because they confuse with it lack of self-control.

Many people deny the idea of free will, Sass, believer and unbeliever, not because of their position on possible gods, but because there isn't any evidence for free will, and what we do know of how the universe operates doesn't leave a mechanism for anything to be free which constitutes will.

The way you control yourself is nothing to do with free will. It is a choice.

I agree that it's nothing to do with free will, because I see no point in claiming free will. How can it be a choice if there is no free will - without free will (or, if it's not related to free will) - then it can't be a choice.

Because you cannot control your bodily appetites in whatever feel it is still about choice. Freewill is still a reality and self-control still your decision.

This makes no sense at all, I'm afraid, I can't make out what you mean by this.

I know that it's been repeatedly pointed out to you why free will makes no sense, yet you keep making the assertion. If you have no basis for that contention, why are you not revising your understanding of the world, there are plenty of believers who accept the reality that free will is an illusion.

O.

[Rhiannon]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

[Nearly Sane]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

[Rhiannon]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

Indeed. 'God knew Eve would bite the apple.'

[Nearly Sane]

So the snake said to Eve 'g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, eat the apple, g'wan'. And Eve said 'Slither off, you talking serpent snakey thing. ' God saw this and thought 'Bugger that, I had such great plans, the Noah thing with the rainbow as a twee fig leaf for drowning nearly everyone, the Job thing with me old mucker, Satan, and most of all the bit where I sacrifice me to me. This free will thing was a mistake'

[Rhiannon]

What would there be to teach the kiddies in Sunday School?

'God drowned all the naughty people but hey, let's go and make some animal masks!'

[Alien]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

Indeed. 'God knew Eve would bite the apple.'

That would be foreknowledge.

[Alien]

What would there be to teach the kiddies in Sunday School?

'God drowned all the naughty people but hey, let's go and make some animal masks!'

Indeed. Totally inappropriate, I would say.

[floo]

What would there be to teach the kiddies in Sunday School?

'God drowned all the naughty people but hey, let's go and make some animal masks!'

Indeed. Totally inappropriate, I would say.

What is totally inappropriate?

[Outrider]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

Indeed. 'God knew Eve would bite the apple.'

That would be foreknowledge.

Not really, it's only foreknowledge if you're limited to the constant progression of time. If you exist outside of the universe - and therefore outside of the flow of time - it's no more 'foreknowledge' than I have foreknowledge for knowing where the other side of the table is. Time is a dimension; our sense and our understanding are limited by the way in which we travel through it, but the limitation is ours, not the dimension's.

O.

[Rhiannon]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

Indeed. 'God knew Eve would bite the apple.'

That would be foreknowledge.

So it wasn't predestined for her to bite?

[Alien]

What would there be to teach the kiddies in Sunday School?

'God drowned all the naughty people but hey, let's go and make some animal masks!'

Indeed. Totally inappropriate, I would say.

What is totally inappropriate?

Belittling what happened.

[Alien]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

Indeed. 'God knew Eve would bite the apple.'

That would be foreknowledge.

Not really, it's only foreknowledge if you're limited to the constant progression of time. If you exist outside of the universe - and therefore outside of the flow of time - it's no more 'foreknowledge' than I have foreknowledge for knowing where the other side of the table is. Time is a dimension; our sense and our understanding are limited by the way in which we travel through it, but the limitation is ours, not the dimension's.

O.

OK with that. My point was only that knowing something is going to happen does not thereby mean you have caused it.

[Alien]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

Indeed. 'God knew Eve would bite the apple.'

That would be foreknowledge.

So it wasn't predestined for her to bite?

What do you mean by predestined? That she had no choice?

[floo]

What would there be to teach the kiddies in Sunday School?

'God drowned all the naughty people but hey, let's go and make some animal masks!'

Indeed. Totally inappropriate, I would say.

What is totally inappropriate?

Belittling what happened.

You mean belittling the seriousness of an evil deity, who must be a complete psycho to drown all but a few humans and animals, because it was having a temper tantrum?

[Brownie]

2Corrie: "Does Sassy go along with the Biblical idea that those not born again are 'slaves to sin' I wonder?"

Quite frankly I think what Sassy believes in that respect is her business.

If you want to know what I believe, or think, it is my opinion that many of us are or have been 'enslaved to sin' for a period.  Just because we are believers it doesn't follow that we will never develop a bad/dangerous habit.  Surely we all know we do wrong.

[Andy]

Not really, it's only foreknowledge if you're limited to the constant progression of time. If you exist outside of the universe - and therefore outside of the flow of time - it's no more 'foreknowledge' than I have foreknowledge for knowing where the other side of the table is. Time is a dimension; our sense and our understanding are limited by the way in which we travel through it, but the limitation is ours, not the dimension's.

O.

OK with that. My point was only that knowing something is going to happen does not thereby mean you have caused it.

But you believe that god did ultimately cause it, right? I  mean Eve, the apple (or fruit/whatever) and the universe they inhabit - none of those would exist without god? So it seems you're in a position where you believe god knows exactly how his creation is going to pan out from start to finish and there's no deviation from that knowledge.

[Outrider]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

Indeed. 'God knew Eve would bite the apple.'

That would be foreknowledge.

Not really, it's only foreknowledge if you're limited to the constant progression of time. If you exist outside of the universe - and therefore outside of the flow of time - it's no more 'foreknowledge' than I have foreknowledge for knowing where the other side of the table is. Time is a dimension; our sense and our understanding are limited by the way in which we travel through it, but the limitation is ours, not the dimension's.

O.

OK with that. My point was only that knowing something is going to happen does not thereby mean you have caused it.

Again, for us with limited capacity, no it doesn't. For God, though, outside of time and the creator of everything at one stroke - God does not 'set the world in motion' because to God there is no motion, it's all one piece. God creates the entirety of history, so what to us is foreknowledge is just part of God's complete knowledge of his creation at the moment he makes it.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Not really, it's only foreknowledge if you're limited to the constant progression of time. If you exist outside of the universe - and therefore outside of the flow of time - it's no more 'foreknowledge' than I have foreknowledge for knowing where the other side of the table is. Time is a dimension; our sense and our understanding are limited by the way in which we travel through it, but the limitation is ours, not the dimension's.

O.

OK with that. My point was only that knowing something is going to happen does not thereby mean you have caused it.

But you believe that god did ultimately cause it, right? I  mean Eve, the apple (or fruit/whatever) and the universe they inhabit - none of those would exist without god? So it seems you're in a position where you believe god knows exactly how his creation is going to pan out from start to finish and there's no deviation from that knowledge.

And of course, if God must act according to its nature, then there is only one possible universe. It has no choice therefore we cannot have free will.

[2Corrie]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

The fall was not a mistake, the redemption was fore-ordained, not 'plan b'.

[floo]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

The fall was not a mistake, the redemption was fore-ordained, not 'plan b'.

What a so and so your version of the deity is!

[Alien]

What would there be to teach the kiddies in Sunday School?

'God drowned all the naughty people but hey, let's go and make some animal masks!'

Indeed. Totally inappropriate, I would say.

What is totally inappropriate?

Belittling what happened.

You mean belittling the seriousness of an evil deity, who must be a complete psycho to drown all but a few humans and animals, because it was having a temper tantrum?

No, I don't. One reason for not meaning that is because that was not happened. Grow up, floo.

[Alien]

Not really, it's only foreknowledge if you're limited to the constant progression of time. If you exist outside of the universe - and therefore outside of the flow of time - it's no more 'foreknowledge' than I have foreknowledge for knowing where the other side of the table is. Time is a dimension; our sense and our understanding are limited by the way in which we travel through it, but the limitation is ours, not the dimension's.

O.

OK with that. My point was only that knowing something is going to happen does not thereby mean you have caused it.

But you believe that god did ultimately cause it, right? I  mean Eve, the apple (or fruit/whatever) and the universe they inhabit - none of those would exist without god? So it seems you're in a position where you believe god knows exactly how his creation is going to pan out from start to finish and there's no deviation from that knowledge.

Yes-ish. Yes, nothing which has happened, happens or will happen would be the case if God had not created the universe as he did, including the bad stuff. Him being God, he must have good reasons for doing it that way.

[Alien]

If free will is an illusion then it has to follow that God created people to be 'fallen sinners'. Difficult one for many believers I'd say.

Or not in some cases. While there is no one on these boards who declares as an outright predestinationalist, quite a few posts approach that.

Indeed. 'God knew Eve would bite the apple.'

That would be foreknowledge.

Not really, it's only foreknowledge if you're limited to the constant progression of time. If you exist outside of the universe - and therefore outside of the flow of time - it's no more 'foreknowledge' than I have foreknowledge for knowing where the other side of the table is. Time is a dimension; our sense and our understanding are limited by the way in which we travel through it, but the limitation is ours, not the dimension's.

O.

OK with that. My point was only that knowing something is going to happen does not thereby mean you have caused it.

Again, for us with limited capacity, no it doesn't. For God, though, outside of time and the creator of everything at one stroke - God does not 'set the world in motion' because to God there is no motion, it's all one piece. God creates the entirety of history, so what to us is foreknowledge is just part of God's complete knowledge of his creation at the moment he makes it.

O.

His complete knowledge including what would happen if he created the universe this way? Then yes. That, in itself, says nothing about whether God can create creatures which are free in their will though, but rather that he knew what they would freely choose (if indeed they are free).