Author Topic: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.  (Read 7965 times)

Sassy

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Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« on: September 11, 2015, 11:13:51 AM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

We have arguments about free will because people think they have no choice in the decisions they make. When they confuse their own self control with the ability to choose.
You don't eat the things you don't like. If starving you would eat the things you don't like because you would feel you had no choice. In reality you still have the choice you just do not want to die.
When it comes to being human we make choices for ourselves based on how we feel as individuals and what we want.

Sometimes you have to overcome the physical senses to find the reality of your choices...
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Outrider

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2015, 12:02:25 PM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

Choice is either:

a) the consequence of those events which have gone before, those which have shaped your character, determined your mood at the time and determined the information available to your consciousness. If this is the case, then it is not free at all; or

b) independent of those events which have occured before, in which case whilst it might be considered 'free' it cannot be 'will' as it is essentially random.

Our will, our thought patterns, are determined by the genetic tendencies we inherit, the epigenetic influences upon those traits, and then the accumulation of our experiences and the sequence in which they occur, which determines our constantly updating and changing character and body of experience.

There is no mechanism for a 'will' component independent of these influences.

People do not 'choose' what to believe, though they could be considered in the common understanding to have a degree of choice over what experiences they expose themselves to in order to shape the subconscious that determines their beliefs.

Quote
We have arguments about free will because people think they have no choice in the decisions they make. When they confuse their own self control with the ability to choose.

No, this is not a confusion of 'self-control' with the idea of 'free will'.

Quote
You don't eat the things you don't like.

But you don't choose to like or dislike those things, either, those are inevitable consequences of the chemical activity within the taste-buds, the state of the brain at the time of exposure and previous experience and association.

Quote
If starving you would eat the things you don't like because you would feel you had no choice. In reality you still have the choice you just do not want to die.

Yet despite that 'choice' about whether to act or not, you can't 'choose' to like or dislike what you are eating just because you're hungry.

Quote
When it comes to being human we make choices for ourselves based on how we feel as individuals and what we want.

And how we feel and what we want are, themselves, determined by prior events: that's why our will isn't free, our 'will' at any given point in time is the inevitable consequence of the conditions that were present before we existed.

Quote
Sometimes you have to overcome the physical senses to find the reality of your choices...

And having the previous experience to lead to the situation where you could ignore the influence of a particular sensory input is, itself, a function of that previous experience.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Shaker

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 12:08:52 PM »
Don't go bringing fact, logic and reason into the discussion, it'll confuse matters.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2015, 03:53:02 PM »
Yes, much bollockery is spoken on this forum but saying we choose our beliefs is the giant can't-fit-in-the-pants form.

Maeght

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2015, 04:03:25 PM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

To demonstrate this, choose not to believe in God. Can you do that?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 06:22:57 PM by Maeght »

Maeght

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2015, 06:38:47 PM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

To demonstrate this, choose not to believe in God. Can you do that?

Yes funnily enough.

I can see an argument for both.

That is not the same thing - and my question was aimed at Sassy who strongly believes.

Owlswing

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2015, 06:39:58 PM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

We have arguments about free will because people think they have no choice in the decisions they make. When they confuse their own self control with the ability to choose.
You don't eat the things you don't like. If starving you would eat the things you don't like because you would feel you had no choice. In reality you still have the choice you just do not want to die.
When it comes to being human we make choices for ourselves based on how we feel as individuals and what we want.

Sometimes you have to overcome the physical senses to find the reality of your choices...

And yet, according to you we do NOT have any choice at all as all our choices are made for us by your God and set out in your bible.

Where's the free-will in that?
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Maeght

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2015, 06:46:10 PM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

To demonstrate this, choose not to believe in God. Can you do that?

Yes funnily enough.

I can see an argument for both.

That is not the same thing - and my question was aimed at Sassy who strongly believes.

It's true the question was aimed at Sassy, but shouldn't it apply to everyone? Or just people that feel strongly?

It can apply to anyone who holds a belief at any moment - can that person just choose to not believe at that moment? Seeing arguments for or against the existence of God isn't the same as believing in God or disbelieving in God. If freewill exists - and is totally free - then at any moment when you believe something you can choose not to (and vice versa).

Rhiannon

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2015, 07:59:23 PM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

To demonstrate this, choose not to believe in God. Can you do that?

Yes funnily enough.

I can see an argument for both.

I could choose not to believe in God.

It just means looking at the universe from another equally valid perspective.

Obviously I'm a bit odd, then  :(

I can choose to see from both perspectives. But I can't choose to actually believe in something no matter how hard I try to force it.

Maeght

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2015, 08:12:22 PM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

To demonstrate this, choose not to believe in God. Can you do that?

I could choose not to believe in God.

It just means looking at the universe from another equally valid perspective.


How could you choose to not believe in God if you do? You can see both sides of belief but that doesn't mean you both believe and don't believe at the same time, at that one moment you either believe or don't believe.

Sassy

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2015, 08:52:13 AM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

Choice is either:

a) the consequence of those events which have gone before, those which have shaped your character, determined your mood at the time and determined the information available to your consciousness. If this is the case, then it is not free at all; or

b) independent of those events which have occured before, in which case whilst it might be considered 'free' it cannot be 'will' as it is essentially random.

Our will, our thought patterns, are determined by the genetic tendencies we inherit, the epigenetic influences upon those traits, and then the accumulation of our experiences and the sequence in which they occur, which determines our constantly updating and changing character and body of experience.

There is no mechanism for a 'will' component independent of these influences.

People do not 'choose' what to believe, though they could be considered in the common understanding to have a degree of choice over what experiences they expose themselves to in order to shape the subconscious that determines their beliefs.

Quote
We have arguments about free will because people think they have no choice in the decisions they make. When they confuse their own self control with the ability to choose.

No, this is not a confusion of 'self-control' with the idea of 'free will'.

Quote
You don't eat the things you don't like.

But you don't choose to like or dislike those things, either, those are inevitable consequences of the chemical activity within the taste-buds, the state of the brain at the time of exposure and previous experience and association.

Quote
If starving you would eat the things you don't like because you would feel you had no choice. In reality you still have the choice you just do not want to die.

Yet despite that 'choice' about whether to act or not, you can't 'choose' to like or dislike what you are eating just because you're hungry.

Quote
When it comes to being human we make choices for ourselves based on how we feel as individuals and what we want.

And how we feel and what we want are, themselves, determined by prior events: that's why our will isn't free, our 'will' at any given point in time is the inevitable consequence of the conditions that were present before we existed.

Quote
Sometimes you have to overcome the physical senses to find the reality of your choices...

And having the previous experience to lead to the situation where you could ignore the influence of a particular sensory input is, itself, a function of that previous experience.

O.

You are wrong there is nothing in your copied arguments that makes the decisions man makes anything but free will. If circumstances affects the decisions we make why are those in comas not making any decisions.
Independant of our surroundings and independant of the physical things the choice when conscious is stil the individuals. People do not rape and murder because of what happenings in their surroundings. Otherwise everyone would rape and murder. They are choices the individual makes.. Nothing in life makes a person a murderer or rapist no life events. They choose to do it, because that is who they are...You cannot confuse self-control and freewill. It is two different things. We are  not all murderers because of our choices and events which happen around us. same with rapist. You cannot  reject or remove free will. You have choice for everything and you are responsible for that choice. Not events past or present it is always your choice. Like taking a holiday, buying a car. It is still a choice. You may have a family of 5 but you can choose a two seater car. You have free will but how you exercise it, it always up to the individual.  FULL STOP!
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2015, 08:58:44 AM »
Yes, much bollockery is spoken on this forum but saying we choose our beliefs is the giant can't-fit-in-the-pants form.

Would that be the bollockery in the form of beliefs where you knowingly choose a made-up belief like paganism and it's worship of tree spirits etc.
Who would choose to believe in such bollocks knowing it was all false?
I guess bollockery comes in larger forms than those who suggest they had  free will to choose to believe in what everyone knows to be false.

Did you really think before making that choice to post... Go on...tell us you had no free will to make that choice... Choice isn't a choice if no free will. Maybe o, yourself and Shaker would like to think about that when choosing what to write. Oh yeah! that's right you believe you could not choose...Bollocks doesn't that mean that you are all robots? :D
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 09:01:10 AM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

To demonstrate this, choose not to believe in God. Can you do that?

Yeah if there was No EVIDENCE for it... I could choose that right away.
Just as you choose to believe there is no evidence acceptable to yourself.
It is all about free will to choose what we believe and even why we believe it...

It is all about man trying to say he is NOT responsible for his sin by pretending he is not responsible for his choices and actions. Fact is you are responsible just as if you choose to steal or commit murder. No one to blame but yourself. You chose it...
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

2Corrie

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 09:15:09 AM »
I would be interested to see how our fallen nature and redemption, as revealed throughout scripture, fits into your argument Sass.
"It is finished."

Maeght

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2015, 09:23:18 AM »

Yeah if there was No EVIDENCE for it... I could choose that right away.
Just as you choose to believe there is no evidence acceptable to yourself.
It is all about free will to choose what we believe and even why we believe it...

You are not making a choice about what to believe but you are interpreting things as evidence based on your previous experiences, nature and nurture. You believe now - can you now choose not to? No you can't, so it's not a choice its a world view based on your nature and nurture and prior experiences. You are not free to just choose to bel;ieve something or not.

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It is all about man trying to say he is NOT responsible for his sin by pretending he is not responsible for his choices and actions.

No it really isn't.

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Fact is you are responsible just as if you choose to steal or commit murder. No one to blame but yourself. You chose it...

Of course the peson is responsible but it is only sensible to examine what drove the person to act as they did. We already do this when trying to determine if murders are sane or insane. If considered insane they are still responsible but what happens to them is different than if considered sane. The idea that people may not be free to choose their actions is a few steps further along this line and does not take away responsibility from the individual concerned.

Maeght

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2015, 09:24:41 AM »
Just as you choose to believe there is no evidence acceptable to yourself.
It is all about free will to choose what we believe and even why we believe it...

I don't choose not to believe - I just don't believe. I couldn't choose to believe.

Maeght

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2015, 09:32:21 AM »

You are wrong there is nothing in your copied arguments that makes the decisions man makes anything but free will. If circumstances affects the decisions we make why are those in comas not making any decisions.

???

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Independant of our surroundings and independant of the physical things the choice when conscious is stil the individuals. People do not rape and murder because of what happenings in their surroundings. Otherwise everyone would rape and murder.

Really?

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They are choices the individual makes.. Nothing in life makes a person a murderer or rapist no life events.

Of course there are things which make people more likely to rape or murder.

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They choose to do it, because that is who they are...

Exactly! So if that is how they are they can't choose not to be how they are!

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You cannot confuse self-control and freewill. It is two different things.

You seem to be the only one confusing them.

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We are  not all murderers because of our choices and events which happen around us. same with rapist. You cannot  reject or remove free will. You have choice for everything and you are responsible for that choice. Not events past or present it is always your choice. Like taking a holiday, buying a car. It is still a choice. You may have a family of 5 but you can choose a two seater car. You have free will but how you exercise it, it always up to the individual.  FULL STOP!

Of course the individual makes an apparent choice and is responsible but the question is is that a free choice unfettered by previous experiences, influences etc You choose a car based on your needs, your previous experiences of cars, your colur preferences and so on. You might, for some reason, decide to buy a totally unsuitable car but there will be a reason why.

You have said that people make choices becasue of who they are - and that is exactly what I am saying. Who we are is a product of nature and nurture and so we cannot just decide at one moment to be someone else.

Maeght

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2015, 09:33:59 AM »
Yes, much bollockery is spoken on this forum but saying we choose our beliefs is the giant can't-fit-in-the-pants form.

Would that be the bollockery in the form of beliefs where you knowingly choose a made-up belief like paganism and it's worship of tree spirits etc.
Who would choose to believe in such bollocks knowing it was all false?
I guess bollockery comes in larger forms than those who suggest they had  free will to choose to believe in what everyone knows to be false.

Did you really think before making that choice to post... Go on...tell us you had no free will to make that choice... Choice isn't a choice if no free will. Maybe o, yourself and Shaker would like to think about that when choosing what to write. Oh yeah! that's right you believe you could not choose...Bollocks doesn't that mean that you are all robots? :D

What an unpleasant post.

Owlswing

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2015, 11:25:04 AM »
Yes, much bollockery is spoken on this forum but saying we choose our beliefs is the giant can't-fit-in-the-pants form.

Would that be the bollockery in the form of beliefs where you knowingly choose a made-up belief like paganism and it's worship of tree spirits etc.
Who would choose to believe in such bollocks knowing it was all false?
I guess bollockery comes in larger forms than those who suggest they had  free will to choose to believe in what everyone knows to be false.

Did you really think before making that choice to post... Go on...tell us you had no free will to make that choice... Choice isn't a choice if no free will. Maybe o, yourself and Shaker would like to think about that when choosing what to write. Oh yeah! that's right you believe you could not choose...Bollocks doesn't that mean that you are all robots? :D

Paganism is NOT "a made-up belief"! It predates Christianity by at least 23,000 years! The oldest religious artifact ever found is the Venus of Willendorf, dated at 23 to 25,000 BC.
 
What IS a made up belief is Gardnerian Wicca - which is only one part of Paganism and, in the matter of Gardners claims for its antiquity, has been seen as fake eevn by most Gardnerians.

As far as most pagans are concerned Chritianity is a s much "made up" as Gardnerianism but 2,000 before Gardner.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 02:51:23 PM by CMG KCMG GCMG »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

2Corrie

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2015, 01:36:18 PM »
Yes, much bollockery is spoken on this forum but saying we choose our beliefs is the giant can't-fit-in-the-pants form.

Would that be the bollockery in the form of beliefs where you knowingly choose a made-up belief like paganism and it's worship of tree spirits etc.
Who would choose to believe in such bollocks knowing it was all false?
I guess bollockery comes in larger forms than those who suggest they had  free will to choose to believe in what everyone knows to be false.

Did you really think before making that choice to post... Go on...tell us you had no free will to make that choice... Choice isn't a choice if no free will. Maybe o, yourself and Shaker would like to think about that when choosing what to write. Oh yeah! that's right you believe you could not choose...Bollocks doesn't that mean that you are all robots? :D

What an unpleasant post.
speaking the truth in love?
"It is finished."

Shaker

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2015, 01:47:18 PM »
No, just bollockery.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Owlswing

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2015, 02:52:23 PM »
Yes, much bollockery is spoken on this forum but saying we choose our beliefs is the giant can't-fit-in-the-pants form.

Would that be the bollockery in the form of beliefs where you knowingly choose a made-up belief like paganism and it's worship of tree spirits etc.
Who would choose to believe in such bollocks knowing it was all false?
I guess bollockery comes in larger forms than those who suggest they had  free will to choose to believe in what everyone knows to be false.

Did you really think before making that choice to post... Go on...tell us you had no free will to make that choice... Choice isn't a choice if no free will. Maybe o, yourself and Shaker would like to think about that when choosing what to write. Oh yeah! that's right you believe you could not choose...Bollocks doesn't that mean that you are all robots? :D

What an unpleasant post.
speaking the truth in love?

In a lot of cases the Christian version of love is anything but!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

floo

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2015, 03:05:09 PM »
CHOICE... is still ours. It is as individual as our fingerprints.
You can choose what you believe but why is the reason you must account for to yourselves as individuals.

We have arguments about free will because people think they have no choice in the decisions they make. When they confuse their own self control with the ability to choose.
You don't eat the things you don't like. If starving you would eat the things you don't like because you would feel you had no choice. In reality you still have the choice you just do not want to die.
When it comes to being human we make choices for ourselves based on how we feel as individuals and what we want.

Sometimes you have to overcome the physical senses to find the reality of your choices...

Sass is in a little world of her own make believe! ::)

Outrider

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2015, 10:10:46 AM »
You are wrong there is nothing in your copied arguments that makes the decisions man makes anything but free will. If circumstances affects the decisions we make why are those in comas not making any decisions.

Saying it doesn't make it so. In theory you had the choice to either refute the arguments I put or simply dismiss them, but the reality is that your underlying nature - shaped by your life to date - inevitably meant at that point you'd just double-down on you unevidenced assertions and dismiss the specific points made because you don't like what they imply.

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Independant of our surroundings and independant of the physical things the choice when conscious is stil the individuals.

But that 'individuality' is itself a consequence of those physical things and those surroundings.

Quote
People do not rape and murder because of what happenings in their surroundings. Otherwise everyone would rape and murder.

You need to understand Chaos Theory - very small differences in the conditions of a complex system can produce vastly different results.

Quote
They are choices the individual makes.. Nothing in life makes a person a murderer or rapist no life events.

By definition they do - that person is alive, has undergone life events and has become a rapist.

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They choose to do it, because that is who they are...

What makes them who they are?

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You cannot confuse self-control and freewill.

Absolutely - self-control is demonstrable, wherease free will is a myth.

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We are  not all murderers because of our choices and events which happen around us. same with rapist. You cannot  reject or remove free will.

I don't need to reject free will - you need to demonstrate it. I've pointed out the flaws in the reasoning, and so far you've failed to even attempt to address them.

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You have choice for everything and you are responsible for that choice.

According to the social construct in which I live, yes, I am held responsible for them - that doesn't make those choices 'free'. If they are free, they aren't choices, they're just random events.

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Not events past or present it is always your choice. Like taking a holiday, buying a car. It is still a choice. You may have a family of 5 but you can choose a two seater car. You have free will but how you exercise it, it always up to the individual.  FULL STOP!

Writing things in capitals, making the same assertion multiple times and  failing to respond to points made in rebuttals are, on the surface of things, your choices. The reality is, as we have seen, it's an inevitable tendency with you, Sass, almost as though you had no control over it whatsoever...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sassy

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2015, 12:39:30 PM »
I would be interested to see how our fallen nature and redemption, as revealed throughout scripture, fits into your argument Sass.

Are you trying to say that Adam didn't know he had a choice..

Therein lies the answer to the fallen nature of man and and the redemption is more to do with the nature of God.

Adam knew what it meant when God said ''Do not eat from the tree of knowledge''
He also understood that to do so would mean death. There was no death of anything at that point. So whatever the understanding he knew whatever God was telling him.

Then came the point where Adam disobeys God and we see what that death clearly was.

Genesis 3 shows how death came to Adam.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


It is clear that Adam and Eve has the right to eat from the tree of life.

Genesis 2
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Death came when that right was removed along with everything else man has suffered since.


King James Bible
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



God did not provide an imperfect way this time. He provided a way back to him that nothing could prevail against. Not sin, the world or the devil.
Once Adam crossed that line all was lost. God did not provide a way back that relied on mans own righteousness. He provided a way back that relied on one man as the fall was about one man Adam. A way that could not be undone by humans or the devil.

Just as Adam had to choose... Just as Christ had to choose.King James Bible
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So man as individuals have the freewill to choose life or death.
To obey God and live or ignore God and die.

All the useless arguments will not bring salvation to any man. Nor will it take it a way.
One way only and that is the way of Jesus Christ being the one full oblation for remission of sins.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."