Author Topic: Christianity basically is not about good vs evil but about living forever and p  (Read 57978 times)

Hope

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Wrong. Again. Do you actually read what people say?
Yes, I do read what people say, Andy.  It is why I have challenged this belief on some people's part that atheism isn't a belief system/world view/whatever for more years than I care to remember.
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Nearly Sane

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The problem with the idea that being an atheist is a conception of the world is that that means I have an infinite amount of worldviews. My aunicornism is a conception of the world by that definition. This makes it meaningless.

As for saying a lack of belief is a semantic trick as regards belief (a) the definition talked about a set of beliefs which it clearly is not and (b) you seem to have got confused into thinking that I do not have a belief in a God and I have a belief there is no God are equivalent. They are not.

Nearly Sane

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Wrong. Again. Do you actually read what people say?
Yes, I do read what people say, Andy.  It is why I have challenged this belief on some people's part that atheism isn't a belief system/world view/whatever for more years than I care to remember.

Wrongly. As Shaker has already noted atheism may be a conclusion from other world views, but it doesn't constitute one. I have more in common with Gonnagle's world view than Dawkins.

Andy

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Wrong. Again. Do you actually read what people say?
Yes, I do read what people say, Andy.  It is why I have challenged this belief on some people's part that atheism isn't a belief system/world view/whatever for more years than I care to remember.

Ok, so you read them then, then completely ignore them and go on to misrepresent them. If, after all the years, you still can't understand the difference between a tentative position of non-belief and an assertive position of belief, then you're a waste of conversation.

Nearly Sane

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Further as I have often posted, I am sceptical about anyone having a coherent and consistent world view. I think we have a hodge podgy of views bundled up in rough heuristics which are then subject to the desires of our lizard brain. That a lack of belief in something could be held to be a world view is quite simply laughable since it leads to the idea that we have infinite world views.

Nearly Sane

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The conclusion of atheism follows from the worldviews of naturalism/materialism/physicalism/scepticism/rationalism etc. etc. etc., not - as you seem to be arguing - vice versa. Naturalism (and the rest) is the worldview; atheism inevitably falls out of that worldview. My understanding of the world is predicated on naturalism (and the rest), not the atheism which is a consequence of it.
Yet there are many - scientists amongst them - who regard "naturalism/materialism/physicalism/scepticism/rationalism etc. etc. etc." as legitimate but still don't come to the conclusion that you do, suggesting that these are not core understandings but means to a core understanding.

You do realise that this is precisely an argument against atheism being a world view, don't you? If both Shaker and these theists believe in materialism then atheism/theism are not world views.

Nearly Sane

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I also find it odd that anyone would suggest that espousing a philosophy or set of beliefs would automatically lead them to the same conclusions as anyone else espousing them - surely this is observable untrue even amongst those who claim fully fledged philosophies? Indeed it is that fact which makes me doubt the real usefulness of the term world view which I suspect is hugely more complex and contradictory for each individual than any ism.

ippy

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These religions there all equally daft, could have sworn I saw Elvis the other day.
Aren't all worldviews, including those underpinning secularism and atheism simply means to social control, then?

Afraid of losing the religious cop out cards, like, losing special privileges because of your beliefs, losing legally sanctioned ability to discriminate within our UK schools systems, being relegated to a level playing field, things like no more of a say or any less of a say than everybody else, afraid of faith/religion being put into the private sphere? (Where it belongs).

I suppose making religions, people of faith, neither having any more or any less of a say than everybody else, a level playing field, would make  religious people feel as though they are being controlled, compared to the privileges they enjoy at present.

ippy   

Outrider

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Wrong. Again. Do you actually read what people say?
Yes, I do read what people say, Andy.  It is why I have challenged this belief on some people's part that atheism isn't a belief system/world view/whatever for more years than I care to remember.

I have to say, Hope, I'm afraid I agree with the others on this one, I don't see that atheism is a 'world-view' - it's too limited in scope and effect. Likewise I think theism is too limited to be a world-view, it's a singular position on a singular issue.

It's an important component in a world-view, certainly, it's an intrinsic part in some world-views even, but I can't see how it can be a world view on its own.

Christianity could be considered a world-view, especially if it were narrowed down to a particular sect, but theism spans from the KKK through Catholicism and the Quakers to Wahhabism, Hinduism and (arguably, perhaps) Shinto. Those are all theistic world-views, but that doesn't make theism a world-view.

O.
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Sassy

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Christianity basically  is not about good vs evil but about living forever and pOwer


Which is why there has always been room for atrocities.

Of course for some Christians it will always be about "love" and " the Good Samaritan " but often with organised religion it isn't.

Which is why it is so important to believe ridiculous things and not question the validity of it.

Lean not to your own understanding, as it says in Christianity, well of course not, if you applied humanitarianism to things, a lot of bad things in history would never have happened. It would have burst the bubble of those who were power hungry.

As Voltaire once said


"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire

This could also be aimed at Islam.
Too few people take a "stand of conscience" against organised religions or those with religious ambition for power.

Or even disorganised religions come to that.

Injustices exist because people allow it to.

Religion of various sorts, is often at the forefront of injustice.

A lot of the time it becomes the justification for it.

 :(

If religions were really about good vs evil and standing up against injustice in the world ,and  defending the vunerable, the world would have been a much better and nicer place.

Yes am having a cynical day today  >:(

Till you see the truth for what it is,.. you will remain cynical and wrong, Rose.

Religion is not to blame for the evil men do.

Men do evil in the absence of religion.

Christ did not evil and if we loved God and our neighbour as ourselves the world would hold no evil.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Leonard James

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Till you see the truth for what it is,.. you will remain cynical and wrong, Rose.

The Oracle has spoken! It's a pity for you, Sass, that you have no idea of the truth of the matter.

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Religion is not to blame for the evil men do.

Not all of it, but a great deal.

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Men do evil in the absence of religion.

Which doesn't alter the above fact.

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Christ did not evil and if we loved God and our neighbour as ourselves the world would hold no evil.

Loving "God" is superfluous ... loving our neighbour does the trick without fairy stories.

Hope

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I have yet to meet any Christians of the 'born-again' ilk who think that way, Floo, and I know a fair number.

So do I unfortunately! :o
Are you saying that you, too, know a fair number of 'born again' Christians who don't think in the way that your original post posited, Floo?  ;)

By the way, as Jim has mentioned on more than one occasion, to be a Christian is to be 'born again' so there is no such thing as a "'born-again' ilk" of Christian.
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floo

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Christianity basically  is not about good vs evil but about living forever and pOwer


Which is why there has always been room for atrocities.

Of course for some Christians it will always be about "love" and " the Good Samaritan " but often with organised religion it isn't.

Which is why it is so important to believe ridiculous things and not question the validity of it.

Lean not to your own understanding, as it says in Christianity, well of course not, if you applied humanitarianism to things, a lot of bad things in history would never have happened. It would have burst the bubble of those who were power hungry.

As Voltaire once said


"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire

This could also be aimed at Islam.
Too few people take a "stand of conscience" against organised religions or those with religious ambition for power.

Or even disorganised religions come to that.

Injustices exist because people allow it to.

Religion of various sorts, is often at the forefront of injustice.

A lot of the time it becomes the justification for it.

 :(

If religions were really about good vs evil and standing up against injustice in the world ,and  defending the vunerable, the world would have been a much better and nicer place.

Yes am having a cynical day today  >:(

Till you see the truth for what it is,.. you will remain cynical and wrong, Rose.

Religion is not to blame for the evil men do.

Men do evil in the absence of religion.

Christ did not evil and if we loved God and our neighbour as ourselves the world would hold no evil.

After your posts on the migrant thread you are not in a position to preach to anyone, especially about loving one's neighbour! :o 

floo

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I have yet to meet any Christians of the 'born-again' ilk who think that way, Floo, and I know a fair number.

So do I unfortunately! :o
Are you saying that you, too, know a fair number of 'born again' Christians who don't think in the way that your original post posited, Floo?  ;)

By the way, as Jim has mentioned on more than one occasion, to be a Christian is to be 'born again' so there is no such thing as a "'born-again' ilk" of Christian.

I know some decent 'born agains' as well as the evil twisted ones! Christianity is made up of many doctrines, cults, dogmas, sects and cult, of which the 'born again' dogma is just one!

Hope

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I suppose making religions, people of faith, neither having any more or any less of a say than everybody else, a level playing field, would make  religious people feel as though they are being controlled, compared to the privileges they enjoy at present.
ippy, I think that the term you were thinking of when you wrote 'religious people' is 'Church of England'.  If not, perhaps you could enumerate the privileges that you believe Buddhists, Methodists, Spiritualists, members of the Churches of Scotland and Wales, Muslims, Pentecostalists, Pagans, Baptists, Hindus, members of the United Reformed Church, Greek and Russian Orthodox Christians, Brethren, Roman Catholics ... enjoy here in the UK.
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Hope

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I know some decent 'born agains' as well as the evil twisted ones! Christianity is made up of many doctrines, cults, dogmas, sects and cult, of which the 'born again' dogma is just one!
I would take your pontifications more seriously, Floo, if you stopped making such elementary errors as this.  To be 'born again' is synonymous with becoming a Christian in Biblical terms. 

I realise that some Christian groupings like to make out that their experience is somewhat 'better' than the experience of other - to them - rather more mundane Christians by calling themselves 'born-again', but generally, that phraseology is hiding some extra requirement that their leaders have specified for the achievement of salvation.  As such, your reference to them as sects or cults is probably more appropriate than referring to them as orthodox - or mainstream - Christians.
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Outrider

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Till you see the truth for what it is,.. you will remain cynical and wrong, Rose.

Religion is not to blame for the evil men do.

Men do evil in the absence of religion.

Christ did not evil and if we loved God and our neighbour as ourselves the world would hold no evil.

ISIS love God, Sass - ask their neighbours how that's working out for them.

"...Then must you speak
Of one that lov'd not wisely but too well;
Of one not easily jealous, but being wrought,
Perplex'd in the extreme. . ."

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

floo

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I know some decent 'born agains' as well as the evil twisted ones! Christianity is made up of many doctrines, cults, dogmas, sects and cult, of which the 'born again' dogma is just one!
I would take your pontifications more seriously, Floo, if you stopped making such elementary errors as this.  To be 'born again' is synonymous with becoming a Christian in Biblical terms. 

I realise that some Christian groupings like to make out that their experience is somewhat 'better' than the experience of other - to them - rather more mundane Christians by calling themselves 'born-again', but generally, that phraseology is hiding some extra requirement that their leaders have specified for the achievement of salvation.  As such, your reference to them as sects or cults is probably more appropriate than referring to them as orthodox - or mainstream - Christians.

Of course the 'born again' lot think they are the only ones ending up in heaven, which shows what a crazy dogma it is. ::) If heaven exists I suspect people of all faiths and none will be there!

Sassy

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Christianity basically  is not about good vs evil but about living forever and pOwer


Which is why there has always been room for atrocities.

Of course for some Christians it will always be about "love" and " the Good Samaritan " but often with organised religion it isn't.

Which is why it is so important to believe ridiculous things and not question the validity of it.

Lean not to your own understanding, as it says in Christianity, well of course not, if you applied humanitarianism to things, a lot of bad things in history would never have happened. It would have burst the bubble of those who were power hungry.

As Voltaire once said


"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire

This could also be aimed at Islam.
Too few people take a "stand of conscience" against organised religions or those with religious ambition for power.

Or even disorganised religions come to that.

Injustices exist because people allow it to.

Religion of various sorts, is often at the forefront of injustice.

A lot of the time it becomes the justification for it.

 :(

If religions were really about good vs evil and standing up against injustice in the world ,and  defending the vunerable, the world would have been a much better and nicer place.

Yes am having a cynical day today  >:(

Till you see the truth for what it is,.. you will remain cynical and wrong, Rose.

Religion is not to blame for the evil men do.

Men do evil in the absence of religion.

Christ did not evil and if we loved God and our neighbour as ourselves the world would hold no evil.

After your posts on the migrant thread you are not in a position to preach to anyone, especially about loving one's neighbour! :o

Loving ones neighbour.... Allowing all these immigrants into this country can only undermine our country and cause even more poverty amongst our poorest and disabled and elderly people.
Imagine a boat you just keep packing it with more people.
IT WILL eventually sink and all will be lost. Why are people coming here. It is common sense that we save our own first then the rest of the world. It is stupidity and foolish to think this country can keep everyone else in the world.

We have taken enough and done more than any other country already. Let the rest of Europe and the World help them. We have done our part. They don't want to go anywhere else because they won't get handouts in the same way as this country dishes it out.

If they could get it in there own country would they be coming here.
If our people went there would they be given help and handouts.
Get a reality check we cannot afford this anymore.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."


Outrider

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Loving ones neighbour.... Allowing all these immigrants into this country can only undermine our country and cause even more poverty amongst our poorest and disabled and elderly people.

It doesn't need to, but there is a significant risk that these would be the groups most disproportionately affected, yes. However, the 'poverty' in Britain is of a different magnitude and scale to that in places like North Africa. Poverty here is earning less than 60% of the average wage, that's disproportionately raised by the extremely high-earners in this countries.

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Imagine a boat you just keep packing it with more people.

I don't need to imagine those boats, they're pushing off from the shores of North Africa all the time - they are obviously overloaded, obviously rickety, obviously unseaworthy - yet what lies behind is so atrocious that people still load their children into them. Why is that, do you think?

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Why are people coming here.

Which 'here'? The UK, they aren't particularly, most of them are headed for Germany and Scandinavia. Europe - because it's where there is peace and hope and jobs and education and healthcare.

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It is common sense that we save our own first then the rest of the world.

Science tells us that race is a myth - your own 'Good Samaritan' belies the idea that we look after our own first.

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It is stupidity and foolish to think this country can keep everyone else in the world.

And no-one's suggesting that it should. What people are suggesting is that the world has room and resources enough for everyone, if certain nations weren't hoarding massive segments of it.

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We have taken enough and done more than any other country already.

Done more than any other in what sense? We've not sold more weapons than everyone, nor taken more refugees and migrants. We've not sent more soldiers, nor given more overseas aid (although we are nearer the top of that measure than most).

It's not about whether we've done more than anyone else, Sass, it's about whether we've done enough, yet.

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Let the rest of Europe and the World help them.

Large segments of Europe are, other segments aren't. The likes of Saudi, Kuwait and the like have done nothing, yet I doubt we'll see much in the way of complaints sent their way.

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They don't want to go anywhere else because they won't get handouts in the same way as this country dishes it out.

Isn't Christianity supposed to value charity, Sass?

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If they could get it in there own country would they be coming here.

Probably not, that's why they're leaving.
If our people went there would they be given help and handouts.

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Get a reality check we cannot afford this anymore.

Why not, we're one of the five or six richest nations on the planet, we have more than enough resources to go round, if we make caring for people in trouble a priority.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Alien

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Shall we have a whip round to buy a TV for Sassy to watch the news so she can see where these people are coming from?
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.

Rhiannon

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If theism is a world view then 2Corrie, Alien, Gabriella, Gonners, Sassy and I should all share it, as we are all theists.

Is that the case?

Rhiannon

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Shall we have a whip round to buy a TV for Sassy to watch the news so she can see where these people are coming from?

She appears to have access to the internet which has stuff like 'news channels' and 'newspapers' on it.

OH MY WORLD!

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"Christianity is not about good vs evil but about living forever and power."

Sorry Rose but if that's what you believe about Christianity then you need to get out of that church you have been attending, cause it ain't Christian! It's sounds more like a cult filling your mind with poison.

If that's something you have decided all on your own then you need to get to know Christianity cause you obviously haven't a clue about it.

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