Christianity basically is not about good vs evil but about living forever and p

[2Corrie]

And that opinion is not scriptural.

"And these things brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."   1Corinthians 4:6

Amen

The grass withers and the flowers fade but the word of our God stands forever.

[ippy]

And that opinion is not scriptural.

"And these things brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."   1Corinthians 4:6

Amen

The grass withers and the flowers fade but the word of our God stands forever.

And the back up for this assertion of yours 2C is?

The bananas grow and the Elephant grass casts its seeds my goodness wasn't the weather terrible here in the south east today. (Makes equally as much sense as your empty post 2 C).

Oh man.

ippy

[Hope]

And the back up for this assertion of yours 2C is?

ippy, I believe that there have probably been about 1980 seasonal cycles across the world since Jesus was crucified.  That's a pretty sizeable amount of Elephant grass and bananas.  I'd be surprised if you were able to produce an edible banana that dates from that period of history.  On the other hand, I can offer you a written document that dates from between 12 and 22 years after the event I referred to above (45/55 AD).  Its called Paul's Epistle to the Galations.  Furthermore, I could - if I had access to the relevant archive - produce a hard copy of that document that scientists have dated to the late 2nd or early 3rd century.  That's the advantage of written documentation; it can - given the right conditions - survive for centuries.

[ippy]

And the back up for this assertion of yours 2C is?

ippy, I believe that there have probably been about 1980 seasonal cycles across the world since Jesus was crucified.  That's a pretty sizable amount of Elephant grass and bananas.  I'd be surprised if you were able to produce an edible banana that dates from that period of history.  On the other hand, I can offer you a written document that dates from between 12 and 22 years after the event I referred to above (45/55 AD).  Its called Paul's Epistle to the Galations.  Furthermore, I could - if I had access to the relevant archive - produce a hard copy of that document that scientists have dated to the late 2nd or early 3rd century.  That's the advantage of written documentation; it can - given the right conditions - survive for centuries.

Let's suppose your evidence proves that somebody called Paul, the actual Paul you're speaking of, did in fact exist and existed at circa the time you say.

How would that bring the mythical, superstitious and magic content of your manual any nearer to being substantiated as any more believable facts than they are at the moment?

As I have tried to explain to you, if anyone were to come up with any viable evidence that supported the mythical, superstitious and magical elements of the said manual, it would be never ending world news on all of the media outlets, and all of those people you keep referring to as atheists would be joining your club.

The above hasn't happened and is very unlikely to happen either, so, in the mean time, what god or gods?

Even if your Paul was about at the times you say he was, even then assuming he did in fact say the things you say he did and assuming the translations did convey, even if not word perfect, as close as possible a faithful translation into English, (Bearing in mind the translation of languages is far from an exact science), it still doesn't amount to anything near to conclusive proof or lend credibility to any of the mythical, superstitious or magical happenings your manual likes to refer to, the happenings that you would like to think did happen.

ippy

[jjohnjil]

And the back up for this assertion of yours 2C is?

ippy, I believe that there have probably been about 1980 seasonal cycles across the world since Jesus was crucified.  That's a pretty sizable amount of Elephant grass and bananas.  I'd be surprised if you were able to produce an edible banana that dates from that period of history.  On the other hand, I can offer you a written document that dates from between 12 and 22 years after the event I referred to above (45/55 AD).  Its called Paul's Epistle to the Galations.  Furthermore, I could - if I had access to the relevant archive - produce a hard copy of that document that scientists have dated to the late 2nd or early 3rd century.  That's the advantage of written documentation; it can - given the right conditions - survive for centuries.

Let's suppose your evidence proves that somebody called Paul, the actual Paul you're speaking of, did in fact exist and existed at circa the time you say.

How would that bring the mythical, superstitious and magic content of your manual any nearer to being substantiated as any more believable facts than they are at the moment?

As I have tried to explain to you, if anyone were to come up with any viable evidence that supported the mythical, superstitious and magical elements of the said manual, it would be never ending world news on all of the media outlets, and all of those people you keep referring to as atheists would be joining your club.

The above hasn't happened and is very unlikely to happen either, so, in the mean time, what god or gods?

Even if your Paul was about at the times you say he was, even then assuming he did in fact say the things you say he did and assuming the translations did convey, even if not word perfect, as close as possible a faithful translation into English, (Bearing in mind the translation of languages is far from an exact science), it still doesn't amount to anything near to conclusive proof or lend credibility to any of the mythical, superstitious or magical happenings your manual likes to refer to, the happenings that you would like to think did happen.

ippy

It's amusing the way they tell us that it's all true because there are fragments of a document - written 20 years after the alleged event and which has to be translated from its ancient original language - that says there were miraculous happenings in an area of the Middle East.

But if they found documents tomorrow telling of miraculous happenings last week in a remote area of the Middle East, they would dismiss it without a blink of the eyelid!

Oh to have the integrity of a true Christian!

[Outrider]

It's amusing the way they tell us that it's all true because there are fragments of a document - written 20 years after the alleged event and which has to be translated from its ancient original language - that says there were miraculous happenings in an area of the Middle East.

But if they found documents tomorrow telling of miraculous happenings last week in a remote area of the Middle East, they would dismiss it without a blink of the eyelid!

Oh to have the integrity of a true Christian!

We have first person testimony from someone we know existed in the US - we have his criminal records to show that he was real - yet the majority of them don't accept Mormonism?

We have historical documents from the middle East giving accounts of Mohammed's encounters with one of the angels, and the lessons he taught, yet they don't accept Islam.

It's almost as though the justifications come after the belief, or something...

O.

[Shaker]

Surely not!

[floo]

And the back up for this assertion of yours 2C is?

ippy, I believe that there have probably been about 1980 seasonal cycles across the world since Jesus was crucified.  That's a pretty sizeable amount of Elephant grass and bananas.  I'd be surprised if you were able to produce an edible banana that dates from that period of history.  On the other hand, I can offer you a written document that dates from between 12 and 22 years after the event I referred to above (45/55 AD).  Its called Paul's Epistle to the Galations.  Furthermore, I could - if I had access to the relevant archive - produce a hard copy of that document that scientists have dated to the late 2nd or early 3rd century.  That's the advantage of written documentation; it can - given the right conditions - survive for centuries.

But that doesn't mean those documents have any veracity, especially as they were written well after Jesus was dead. Word of mouth is NOT reliable, ever played Chinese whispers?

[ippy]

And the back up for this assertion of yours 2C is?

ippy, I believe that there have probably been about 1980 seasonal cycles across the world since Jesus was crucified.  That's a pretty sizeable amount of Elephant grass and bananas.  I'd be surprised if you were able to produce an edible banana that dates from that period of history.  On the other hand, I can offer you a written document that dates from between 12 and 22 years after the event I referred to above (45/55 AD).  Its called Paul's Epistle to the Galations.  Furthermore, I could - if I had access to the relevant archive - produce a hard copy of that document that scientists have dated to the late 2nd or early 3rd century.  That's the advantage of written documentation; it can - given the right conditions - survive for centuries.

But that doesn't mean those documents have any veracity, especially as they were written well after Jesus was dead. Word of mouth is NOT reliable, ever played Chinese whispers?

He proberbly does realise, but doesn't want to give up and admit it, to himself primarily.

It must be difficult for anyone to admit they've been peddling nonsense for years.

ippy

[Shaker]

It's the sunk costs fallacy.

[Hope]

But that doesn't mean those documents have any veracity, especially as they were written well after Jesus was dead. Word of mouth is NOT reliable, ever played Chinese whispers?

Oh no, not that old chestnut again, Floo.  I've recently dealt with it on another thread.

By the way, have you ever played said game with adults who don't read and write, Floo.  It is a competely different game.  Rather trying to work out at which point the errors start to creep in, its a matter of seeing how long they can keep the message going in its correct form.  Often, it isn't a brief one or two sentence message as would be the case with children and literate folk; it can be a 8-10 sentence passage.  I've even known the people playing it come back some time later - weeks and even months - and repeat it word for word.  Remember that when one doesn't read or write one will often 'tell' a story time and time again, rather than relying on a single reading/writing or two.

[Outrider]

Oh no, not that old chestnut again, Floo.  I've recently dealt with it on another thread.

By the way, have you ever played said game with adults who don't read and write, Floo.  It is a competely different game.  Rather trying to work out at which point the errors start to creep in, its a matter of seeing how long they can keep the message going in its correct form.  Often, it isn't a brief one or two sentence message as would be the case with children and literate folk; it can be a 8-10 sentence passage.  I've even known the people playing it come back some time later - weeks and even months - and repeat it word for word.  Remember that when one doesn't read or write one will often 'tell' a story time and time again, rather than relying on a single reading/writing or two.

Ancient and Mediaeval Memories: Studies in the Reconstruction of the Past - Janet Coleman

"...the assumption that non-literate cultures encourage lengthy verbatim recall is the mistaken projection by literates of text-dependent frames of reference."

She also includes a lengthy section on the use of ancient Jewish texts by the early Christian scholars which give equally short shrift to the idea of verbatim recollection. Essentially, the verbal tradition conveys concepts reasonably well from one person to the next, but the concepts that one individual focuses on may not be the ones that were the intent of whomever imparted the information to them.

Songs, on the other hand, often are conveyed verbatim, and it seems likely that the Psalms, for instance, are reasonably intact from their initial construction.

So no, the idea that just because they couldn't write they developed super-powers for verbatim memory isn't held up by the scholarly research.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

And again, even were verbal recall to be better, it does not mean that event recall is better.

[Dicky Underpants]

Songs, on the other hand, often are conveyed verbatim, and it seems likely that the Psalms, for instance, are reasonably intact from their initial construction.

So no, the idea that just because they couldn't write they developed super-powers for verbatim memory isn't held up by the scholarly research.

O.

This is an interesting observation which agrees with the experience of many modern opera singers, who have to learn huge swathes of sung text, often in languages in which they are not at all fluent, or maybe actually speak only a few words at most. Something about the addition of music to the plain word seems to be a remarkable memory-aid.

[Nearly Sane]

Not just music, iambic pentameter (amongst others) helps. Having patterned stories helps with stored repetitive phrases also helps, hence the two feeding of the multitudes.

[Outrider]

Songs, on the other hand, often are conveyed verbatim, and it seems likely that the Psalms, for instance, are reasonably intact from their initial construction.

So no, the idea that just because they couldn't write they developed super-powers for verbatim memory isn't held up by the scholarly research.

O.

This is an interesting observation which agrees with the experience of many modern opera singers, who have to learn huge swathes of sung text, often in languages in which they are not at all fluent, or maybe actually speak only a few words at most. Something about the addition of music to the plain word seems to be a remarkable memory-aid.

I'd need to look up the detail, but I remember that singing and speaking use different areas of the brain - when we memorise songs, we don't typically include the meaning, whereas speech we do.

One practical application of this difference is that it's used to help people who suffer from stuttering - they are toldto sing the words they are using and the different brain area bypasses the 'glitch' that causes the stutter.

O.

[floo]

But that doesn't mean those documents have any veracity, especially as they were written well after Jesus was dead. Word of mouth is NOT reliable, ever played Chinese whispers?

Oh no, not that old chestnut again, Floo.  I've recently dealt with it on another thread.

By the way, have you ever played said game with adults who don't read and write, Floo.  It is a competely different game.  Rather trying to work out at which point the errors start to creep in, its a matter of seeing how long they can keep the message going in its correct form.  Often, it isn't a brief one or two sentence message as would be the case with children and literate folk; it can be a 8-10 sentence passage.  I've even known the people playing it come back some time later - weeks and even months - and repeat it word for word.  Remember that when one doesn't read or write one will often 'tell' a story time and time again, rather than relying on a single reading/writing or two.

Word of mouth accounts have the same veracity as Chinese whispers, especially when passed down over the years, imo!

[jjohnjil]

But that doesn't mean those documents have any veracity, especially as they were written well after Jesus was dead. Word of mouth is NOT reliable, ever played Chinese whispers?

Oh no, not that old chestnut again, Floo.  I've recently dealt with it on another thread.

By the way, have you ever played said game with adults who don't read and write, Floo.  It is a competely different game.  Rather trying to work out at which point the errors start to creep in, its a matter of seeing how long they can keep the message going in its correct form.  Often, it isn't a brief one or two sentence message as would be the case with children and literate folk; it can be a 8-10 sentence passage.  I've even known the people playing it come back some time later - weeks and even months - and repeat it word for word.  Remember that when one doesn't read or write one will often 'tell' a story time and time again, rather than relying on a single reading/writing or two.

All of which, IMV, doesn't address the real question!  Why - even if over a 20 year period, every word was remembered accurately and relayed perfectly - you believe those fantastical stories but you'd dismiss any similar claim made only last week!  And you actually do dismiss very similar claims for both Mormonism and Islam!

[2Corrie]

If I had witnessed the resurrection I think it would have stuck in my mind for more than 20 yrs !

[Shaker]

If I had witnessed the resurrection I think it would have stuck in my mind for more than 20 yrs !

Problematically for you, exactly the same, word for word, can be said about your belief - but not the reality - that you had witnessed a resurrection.

[Alien]

If I had witnessed the resurrection I think it would have stuck in my mind for more than 20 yrs !

Lol

A bit like one of those films where the corpse comes to life in the morgue, and everyone screams and runs for it. 

Nope. I think you will find that 2Corrie was talking about Jesus' resurrection. However, I think you probably understood that anyway.

[Leonard James]

If I had witnessed the resurrection I think it would have stuck in my mind for more than 20 yrs !

Lol

A bit like one of those films where the corpse comes to life in the morgue, and everyone screams and runs for it. 

Nope. I think you will find that 2Corrie was talking about Jesus' resurrection. However, I think you probably understood that anyway.

NOBODY actually witnessed the resurrection. They simply claimed they saw Jesus alive after he had been entombed ... which is a very different thing.

[Alien]

If I had witnessed the resurrection I think it would have stuck in my mind for more than 20 yrs !

Lol

A bit like one of those films where the corpse comes to life in the morgue, and everyone screams and runs for it. 

Nope. I think you will find that 2Corrie was talking about Jesus' resurrection. However, I think you probably understood that anyway.

NOBODY actually witnessed the resurrection. They simply claimed they saw Jesus alive after he had been entombed ... which is a very different thing.

Yes, I know that and so does 2Corrie. Let's rephrase it then. If she or I had met up with the risen Jesus, talked with him and eaten with him, particularly if we did this a number of times, we think we would remember it 20 years and more later. That is the point being made, despite Rose's silly comment.

[Leonard James]

Yes, I know that and so does 2Corrie. Let's rephrase it then. If she or I had met up with the risen Jesus, talked with him and eaten with him, particularly if we did this a number of times, we think we would remember it 20 years and more later. That is the point being made, despite Rose's silly comment.

I don't remember any repeated meetings or meals with Jesus ... they were all one off instances by different people, but please correct me if I am wrong.

[floo]

If I had witnessed the resurrection I think it would have stuck in my mind for more than 20 yrs !

But none of them witnessed the actual resurrection did they?