"Atheism is a world view"

[Nearly Sane]

To be fair here, the whole agnostic thing is something that a lot of atheists on here seem to struggle with as well.

[wigginhall]

To be fair here, the whole agnostic thing is something that a lot of atheists on here seem to struggle with as well.

OK, but I don't see Christians doing this as struggling with it.  Is 2Corrie struggling?  No, she is just telling you what you think.  And she will carry on doing this, whether or not you correct her, protest, or whatever.  It won't make the slightest difference.   But remember, love your neighbour, brother, in other words, erase them. 

[Shaker]

To be fair here, the whole agnostic thing is something that a lot of atheists on here seem to struggle with as well.

NS, you mean that some atheists treat agnosticism as a half-way house more or less exactly in the middle of some scale with theism at one end and atheism at the other? If that's what you meant, I can only say that I've only ever seen this at work in one person who's not a theist; for the most part I've normally only ever seen it from theists. Most atheists seem to be aware that agnosticism and atheism refer to two entirely difference spheres, and are entirely consonant with each other.

I fear we have the evolution of language to blame - the common, everyday meaning of agnostic which is so prevalent now is a million miles away from what Huxley intended when he coined the term. As nice as it would be for us fussy old-guarders to put the genie back in the bottle and have the word used in its original sense (and people using disinterested and uninterested properly as well!), it's almost certainly too late.

[Nearly Sane]

I've seen posters on here state both I am agnostic not atheist, and I am atheist not agnostic as if they are a continuum

[Shaker]

I've seen posters on here state both I am agnostic not atheist, and I am atheist not agnostic as if they are a continuum

Yes, exactly.

[Nearly Sane]

Which surely indicates the same issue as 2Corrie?

[Andy]

Andy

Yes, you are right.  We are all dishonest, intermittently, but this is systematic.   I think it's partly a kind of narcissism, that is, a refusal to actually perceive other people, with different views, very ironic on the part of Christians (love your neighbour, and so on).  Or, love your neighbour, but ignore his ideas, and try to replace them by your own. 

And, as you say, none of this will make the slightest difference.

I dunno, far be it from me to play amateur psychologist but a catalyst may come from being uneasy with their own position so try to create a parallel with those who are ataraxic with theirs. <shrugs>

[Shaker]

Bloody hell, first we had Procrustean bed from wiggy, now ataraxic - what's everybody on tonight?

[Andy]

Bloody hell, first we had Procrustean bed from wiggy, now ataraxic - what's everybody on tonight?

All Greek to me.

[Shaker]

*headdesk*

[Andy]

Listen, I'm working my way up to the level of your rhubarb joke. Small steps.

[Rhiannon]

It's the whole world view thing I find perplexing. Why bother with the atheism which is at most a tiny part of my thoughts. My heuristic approach to life is much closer to Gonzo than it is Be Rational and Gonzo's is closer to mine than his is to TW.


I once though I had a world view but it was the co-codamol, whisky and insomnia talking.

As a pantheist I suppose my beliefs are a world view. But then I would need to see some kind of meaning in that, and I'm not sure I do.

And I agree, as a theist my 'world view' is much closer to yours and Shaker's than it is to most other theists on here.

[Rhiannon]

Those experiences, though, don't happen in a vacuum. We all have an understanding of what is meant by 'god', even if we haven't either a belief or a direct personal experience.

If we can only presume to understand those things that are explained as part of the specific argument we lose access to a shared language at all.

O.

No, I don't have such an understanding - to have an understanding it would need something that made sense in some way to me - so for example a being outside space and time is exactly the same to me as a four sided triangle - it is definitionally meaningless.

'Outside time and space' is meaningless for me as well. But my definition of 'God' as I experience 'it' is going to be so far off, say, Alien's, that we are talking about different concepts completely. Is there still a discussion to be had?

[jeremyp]

Ok, I'm an atheist.

Please elaborate on what my world view entails due to my atheism.

From that statement alone, I deduce that you do not believe in god(s).

[Rhiannon]

Andy

Yes, you are right.  We are all dishonest, intermittently, but this is systematic.   I think it's partly a kind of narcissism, that is, a refusal to actually perceive other people, with different views, very ironic on the part of Christians (love your neighbour, and so on).  Or, love your neighbour, but ignore his ideas, and try to replace them by your own. 

And, as you say, none of this will make the slightest difference.

I dunno, far be it from me to play amateur psychologist but a catalyst may come from being uneasy with their own position so try to create a parallel with those who are ataraxic with theirs. <shrugs>

I can remember feeling very happy with my beliefs, but very desperate to convince others to feel the same, which then made me unhappy.

Why I was desperate to do that I have no idea.

[Andy]

Andy

Yes, you are right.  We are all dishonest, intermittently, but this is systematic.   I think it's partly a kind of narcissism, that is, a refusal to actually perceive other people, with different views, very ironic on the part of Christians (love your neighbour, and so on).  Or, love your neighbour, but ignore his ideas, and try to replace them by your own. 

And, as you say, none of this will make the slightest difference.

I dunno, far be it from me to play amateur psychologist but a catalyst may come from being uneasy with their own position so try to create a parallel with those who are ataraxic with theirs. <shrugs>

I can remember feeling very happy with my beliefs, but very desperate to convince others to feel the same, which then made me unhappy.

Why I was desperate to do that I have no idea.

Like I said I'm no psychologist, nor am I aiming this at anyone specific or trying to generalise. Plus, I'm sure there'll be those who say I'm talking bollocks, at least according to their approach, which is fair enough. However, there is baggage with theism, whether viewed positively or negatively, which a void of theism doesn't carry.

[Udayana]

Any world view is baggage .. but we often need baggage to carry our tools in. Atheism is not a "world view", but atheists do have world views, and have tool sets to help explain and predict how the world behaves. Theists can use the same methods but carry them in a different "world view".

[jeremyp]

NS, you mean that some atheists treat agnosticism as a half-way house more or less exactly in the middle of some scale with theism at one end and atheism at the other? If that's what you meant, I can only say that I've only ever seen this at work in one person who's not a theist;

I would say that it is a fairly common misconception in the World at large, particularly amongst theists.  Theists have a problem understanding how people can take a position without being certain that their position is true because they do take a position with absolute certainty (in their own minds).

We can test this out by asking the theists here if they could conceive the possibility that they might be wrong. 

[Shaker]

I would say that it is a fairly common misconception in the World at large, particularly amongst theists.  Theists have a problem understanding how people can take a position without being certain that their position is true because they do take a position with absolute certainty (in their own minds).

We can test this out by asking the theists here if they could conceive the possibility that they might be wrong.

A challenge that pops up fairly often, but one which I've never seen accepted honestly head-on. Not ever so long ago (thread now forgotten) Alien raised the same challenge with me; I provided him with a response as to what would change my mind about disbelief in the existence of any gods. I've yet to see any theist do the same.

[Rhiannon]

NS, you mean that some atheists treat agnosticism as a half-way house more or less exactly in the middle of some scale with theism at one end and atheism at the other? If that's what you meant, I can only say that I've only ever seen this at work in one person who's not a theist;

I would say that it is a fairly common misconception in the World at large, particularly amongst theists.  Theists have a problem understanding how people can take a position without being certain that their position is true because they do take a position with absolute certainty (in their own minds).

We can test this out by asking the theists here if they could conceive the possibility that they might be wrong.

I think I probably am wrong. In fact if my past record is anything to go by I'm certainly wrong.

[Rhiannon]

Andy

Yes, you are right.  We are all dishonest, intermittently, but this is systematic.   I think it's partly a kind of narcissism, that is, a refusal to actually perceive other people, with different views, very ironic on the part of Christians (love your neighbour, and so on).  Or, love your neighbour, but ignore his ideas, and try to replace them by your own. 

And, as you say, none of this will make the slightest difference.

I dunno, far be it from me to play amateur psychologist but a catalyst may come from being uneasy with their own position so try to create a parallel with those who are ataraxic with theirs. <shrugs>

I can remember feeling very happy with my beliefs, but very desperate to convince others to feel the same, which then made me unhappy.

Why I was desperate to do that I have no idea.

Like I said I'm no psychologist, nor am I aiming this at anyone specific or trying to generalise. Plus, I'm sure there'll be those who say I'm talking bollocks, at least according to their approach, which is fair enough. However, there is baggage with theism, whether viewed positively or negatively, which a void of theism doesn't carry.

Figured it out over coffee - I remembered I'm inclined to rescue people (or I used to be) and religion was a way in which I thought I could 'fix' people.

[jeremyp]

I think I probably am wrong. In fact if my past record is anything to go by I'm certainly wrong.

Mea culpa.  In fact the pagans generally seem much happier about the possibility of being wrong than the Abrahamic religionists. 

[Rhiannon]

I think I probably am wrong. In fact if my past record is anything to go by I'm certainly wrong.

Mea culpa.  In fact the pagans generally seem much happier about the possibility of being wrong than the Abrahamic religionists.

From my point of view it's all unknowable. I just go with what works for me but the idea that I have the 'truth' is bonkers.

[splashscuba]

Ok, I'm an atheist.

Please elaborate on what my world view entails due to my atheism.

OK, as an atheist you believe that there is no sentient being that has created 'life, the universe and everything' and therefore .......

Nope. I have no views about any sentient being that has created 'life, the universe and everything'

[2Corrie]

Ok, I'm an atheist.

Please elaborate on what my world view entails due to my atheism.

OK, as an atheist you believe that there is no sentient being that has created 'life, the universe and everything' and therefore .......

Nope. I have no views about any sentient being that has created 'life, the universe and everything'

Isn't that an awfully thin fence to be sitting on? No views one way or the other? Sounds a bit like trying to imagine 'nothing' .