What is Your Personal Experience of Your God?

[Dicky Underpants]

The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing.

I think the reason for that JK, is fairly obvious.

I had hoped for some testimonies but it is now looking as likely as the second coming.

With a tentative reference to my own experiences (whose authenticity I have long since rejected), I note that they were dependent on reading about the religion in question first, and as such the experiences were no doubt influenced by the kind of reading I was subjecting myself to. I wonder if there are any authenticated 'spiritual' experiences of people who had the mystical zap first, before they ever were able to read up and decide what it was that had happened to them?

[Leonard James]

People still have experiences though, doesn't always matter about culture or distance or even belief. The only thing that often differs is the interpretation.

From infancy we begin unconsciously to learn the culture and beliefs of our environment, and though we are not aware of it this can undoubtedly cause such experiences.

[Outrider]

People still have experiences though, doesn't always matter about culture or distance or even belief. The only thing that often differs is the interpretation.

From infancy we begin unconsciously to learn the culture and beliefs of our environment, and though we are not aware of it this can undoubtedly cause such experiences.

#

I'm not sure that it can cause the experience, necessarily, I think the experiences are a phenomenon in their own right. What it may well do is create the framework in which that experience is interpreted, leading some to a religious understanding, some to presume alien abduction or ghost manifestation or just 'something odd'.

O.

[Leonard James]

I'm not sure that it can cause the experience, necessarily, I think the experiences are a phenomenon in their own right. What it may well do is create the framework in which that experience is interpreted, leading some to a religious understanding, some to presume alien abduction or ghost manifestation or just 'something odd'.

O.

I stand corrected! The experiences are the brain's own product, but the interpretation of them is the result of nature/nurture.

[Jack Knave]

The idea was to hear about what really personal direct event and experience made it absolutely clear to them that their God was there, and as such confirmed for them internally that it was true. I find it odd how many present chapter and verse or some academic argument for what should be an affirmation of life for them and as such conditions there future conduct and behaviour. So far I've had nothing.

I think the reason for that JK, is fairly obvious.

I had hoped for some testimonies but it is now looking as likely as the second coming.

With a tentative reference to my own experiences (whose authenticity I have long since rejected), I note that they were dependent on reading about the religion in question first, and as such the experiences were no doubt influenced by the kind of reading I was subjecting myself to. I wonder if there are any authenticated 'spiritual' experiences of people who had the mystical zap first, before they ever were able to read up and decide what it was that had happened to them?

I'm more interested in the detail than whether it was caused by this or that.

[Rhiannon]

These are a couple of recent things I've experienced as a pagan, JK.

One was going through a very worrying time - for some reason I hadn't walked the land for a while as I usually do. I decided to take a walk one day and Tit felt like the land rose up to meet me, I could 'hear' the land, the trees and the stones saying, why didn't you come sooner, we are here, we are always here.

Another thing happened just yesterday. I regularly walk past a brook where some tall willows grow and one came down earlier this year. The farmer had taken away most of the branches but left the stump lying across the brook like a bridge; it sprouted new growth and by the end of the summer this was a few feet high. Last week for whatever reason this growth was flailed; jagged stems and branches litter around and the trunk itself has splinters all along it. To me this feels like a desecration every bit as much as the vandalism of a church. Yesterday I felt that the willow wanted me to take some cuttings (as I'd done earlier in the year when it first came down) so that something good could arise from it, so I stopped to pick off some new growth that had been missed by the flail and I've put them in a couple of pots. At some point I'll go back to the site with some bird seed in exchange.

[Jack Knave]

These are a couple of recent things I've experienced as a pagan, JK.

One was going through a very worrying time - for some reason I hadn't walked the land for a while as I usually do. I decided to take a walk one day and Tit felt like the land rose up to meet me, I could 'hear' the land, the trees and the stones saying, why didn't you come sooner, we are here, we are always here.

Another thing happened just yesterday. I regularly walk past a brook where some tall willows grow and one came down earlier this year. The farmer had taken away most of the branches but left the stump lying across the brook like a bridge; it sprouted new growth and by the end of the summer this was a few feet high. Last week for whatever reason this growth was flailed; jagged stems and branches litter around and the trunk itself has splinters all along it. To me this feels like a desecration every bit as much as the vandalism of a church. Yesterday I felt that the willow wanted me to take some cuttings (as I'd done earlier in the year when it first came down) so that something good could arise from it, so I stopped to pick off some new growth that had been missed by the flail and I've put them in a couple of pots. At some point I'll go back to the site with some bird seed in exchange.

Ok. As I had not really considered the more open and pluralistic idea of a deity two questions follow from this. 1) How do you see your 'God' i.e. some form of a definition and 2) how does this experience then confirm, relate, explain and/or reinforce your belief in your 'God'.

Please note that my thread question was about something that happened prior to conversion, or what ever, so really it should be about what led to you becoming a pagan - you may have done this as I have the idea it was a more gradual process for you(?). But I'll take the above accounts if they add something to your overall beliefs.

[Jack Knave]

My experience was a nice little chat with " something"  odd at about age 12.

Who came and sat on my bed in the night and seemed to review my life. ( mentally it was like a video being played through your head at very high speed, so you get just tiny glimpses).

Sort of along the lines of sleep paralysis but without the sleep, or the paralysis.

It was a nice experience and is surprisingly common if you look on the Internet.

Never had anything like that again though.

I wanted to introduce him to my mother, because I thought he was pretty cool but he said no, I shouted for her, he vanished instantly ( she was in the bedroom next door).

My mother freaked at the time and got my father to check all the windows and doors and wanted to call the police, because she thought it was a real man who had somehow gotten in.

About ten years ago she told me she was worried because, before I shouted, she had heard " voices" assumed the other voice was my radio.

It was weird.


But it was a very positive and nice experience, so no probs.

I just don't believe all this negative judgmental hell stuff, religions sometimes spout.

IF ( and it's a big if )  it was real, It was wonderful and not at all judgmental.

 


I have no idea what that was though, but he weighed something, because I felt him sit on my bed.


I wasn't into religion either at 12,   I wondered if he'd got the wrong house.

He had a sense of humour too.

But he never introduced himself or explained why he was there.

Did you 'see' him? or did you only hear him and 'felt' his weight.

[Rhiannon]

Jack, I don't view my paganism as something I converted to, but something I returned to. It much more reflects the beliefs and experiences that I had as a child than Christianity did, even though that is how I was raised. So the experiences I've just described reflect how I live my life, how I always have done.

I view 'God' as the living energy in all things - you can call it spirit, Tao, chi, whatever - but also creation itself is. I also think that isn't how everyone experiences God and that we need sometimes to put human ideas onto it/him/her to aid our understanding. I also think the energy of a place affects this, hence the differing deities across the world, even within the same religion. Personally I think focussed energy/minds makes these deities discernible. If you look at the myths of different cultures there are goddesses and gods who are often quite human-like in their stories, and there are archetypes that can be worked with as a way to understanding. Hence my username.

I know you are interested in archetypes; you mind find the Druid Animal Oracle interesting from a psychological point of view.

[Jack Knave]

Jack, I don't view my paganism as something I converted to, but something I returned to. It much more reflects the beliefs and experiences that I had as a child than Christianity did, even though that is how I was raised. So the experiences I've just described reflect how I live my life, how I always have done.

I view 'God' as the living energy in all things - you can call it spirit, Tao, chi, whatever - but also creation itself is. I also think that isn't how everyone experiences God and that we need sometimes to put human ideas onto it/him/her to aid our understanding. I also think the energy of a place affects this, hence the differing deities across the world, even within the same religion. Personally I think focussed energy/minds makes these deities discernible. If you look at the myths of different cultures there are goddesses and gods who are often quite human-like in their stories, and there are archetypes that can be worked with as a way to understanding. Hence my username.

I know you are interested in archetypes; you mind find the Druid Animal Oracle interesting from a psychological point of view.

Can I assume then that the experiences you had as a child were similar to the ones you have mentioned? At what point did you relate these to paganism; was it in your adulthood after your childhood experiences or did you realise they were pagan as a child?

[Rhiannon]

Yes, the experiences were very similar.

I didn't really know what paganism was; I did relate my interests and experiences together (eg natural history, folklore, archaeology). None of these are things that my family are especially interested by. In my teens I saw a Wiccan on TV and I felt very drawn to what she was talking about, but I had no way of getting in touch with her or anyone like her. Later I felt the need for structure and I went to Christianity because that was what I knew. I always felt drawn towards mysticism and the experiences in nature continued, but I was told in no uncertain terms that they were unacceptably 'pagan' and 'pagan' was drummed into me as something to be feared.

Around this time I started using the net and joined a forum on which there was a hedgewitch posting. Although alarmed by 'pagan' I felt very drawn to what she described; when I lost my faith I eventually got in touch with her to ask for help and she pointed me in the direction of some resources. Although I had to unlearn my fears around paganism, it still felt like a homecoming and now I feel authentically me; as a Christian I often felt anxious about not getting it right, which I don't any more.

[Rhiannon]

Rose, I've read quite a few similar accounts, usually from people who describe themselves as 'non religious' or 'non spiritual'.

[Leonard James]

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.

[Leonard James]

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.

I don't.

But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.

With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation,  but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)

Another explainable one is  faces in pictures of nature, which could be  the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.

But not all experiences.

Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.

Not sure it's always the answer.

And I am sure it is. 

I think the NDE is similar for many different people because the brain starved of oxygen reacts in similar ways regardless of culture or religion, the tunnel effect being one of them.

[ippy]

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.

I don't.

But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.

With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation,  but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)

Another explainable one is  faces in pictures of nature, which could be  the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.

But not all experiences.

Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.

Not sure it's always the answer.

Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?

ippy

[Jack Knave]

My experience was a nice little chat with " something"  odd at about age 12.

Who came and sat on my bed in the night and seemed to review my life. ( mentally it was like a video being played through your head at very high speed, so you get just tiny glimpses).

Sort of along the lines of sleep paralysis but without the sleep, or the paralysis.

It was a nice experience and is surprisingly common if you look on the Internet.

Never had anything like that again though.

I wanted to introduce him to my mother, because I thought he was pretty cool but he said no, I shouted for her, he vanished instantly ( she was in the bedroom next door).

My mother freaked at the time and got my father to check all the windows and doors and wanted to call the police, because she thought it was a real man who had somehow gotten in.

About ten years ago she told me she was worried because, before I shouted, she had heard " voices" assumed the other voice was my radio.

It was weird.


But it was a very positive and nice experience, so no probs.

I just don't believe all this negative judgmental hell stuff, religions sometimes spout.

IF ( and it's a big if )  it was real, It was wonderful and not at all judgmental.

 


I have no idea what that was though, but he weighed something, because I felt him sit on my bed.


I wasn't into religion either at 12,   I wondered if he'd got the wrong house.

He had a sense of humour too.

But he never introduced himself or explained why he was there.

Did you 'see' him? or did you only hear him and 'felt' his weight.

No I saw him too.

Judging by the description of the experience I would guess the emotional content of it was fairly good, not scary or fearful?

And I assume your father found all the windows and doors were securely closed?

The video thing sounds familiar. What was on the video, was it just you life to date or was there other material on it? Have you pondered on what he said?

Did it help you in away? Do you know why it occurred, as it doesn't happen to everyone? Has anything over the years shown this to be useful or given credence to it?

[Jack Knave]

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.

I don't.

But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.

With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation,  but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)

Another explainable one is  faces in pictures of nature, which could be  the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.

But not all experiences.

Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.

Not sure it's always the answer.

Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?

ippy

Why would Christians dream of Gnostic, Alchemic and paganesque type symbolisms?   

[ippy]

I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.

When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up? 

Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.   

Imagination.

ippy

P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?

[ippy]

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.

I don't.

But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.

With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation,  but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)

Another explainable one is  faces in pictures of nature, which could be  the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.

But not all experiences.

Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.

Not sure it's always the answer.

Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?

ippy

Why would Christians dream of Gnostic, Alchemic and paganesque type symbolisms?

They're all supposed religious figures of one kind or another, come to that never heard of visa versa with a Muslim, say he or she saw Mary.

ippy

[Jack Knave]

I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.

When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up? 

Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.   

Imagination.

ippy

P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?

Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.

Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).

[Jack Knave]

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.

I don't.

But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.

With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation,  but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)

Another explainable one is  faces in pictures of nature, which could be  the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.

But not all experiences.

Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.

Not sure it's always the answer.

Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?

ippy

Why would Christians dream of Gnostic, Alchemic and paganesque type symbolisms?

They're all supposed religious figures of one kind or another, come to that never heard of visa versa with a Muslim, say he or she saw Mary.

ippy

Sorry, I forgot to say that they had no knowledge of such things and so could not have occurred from things they had consciously acquired.

I was also going to say, but I can't for the life of me find the quote, that when Jung went to Africa around the 1920's he asked about their dreams. Some had Greek god figures in them and when Jung inquired if they knew what they were they said they hadn't a clue. How could such a thing come about if they had never had any previous conscious encounter with the myths?

[Leonard James]

Sorry, I forgot to say that they had no knowledge of such things and so could not have occurred from things they had consciously acquired.

I was also going to say, but I can't for the life of me find the quote, that when Jung went to Africa around the 1920's he asked about their dreams. Some had Greek god figures in them and when Jung inquired if they knew what they were they said they hadn't a clue. How could such a thing come about if they had never had any previous conscious encounter with the myths?

I doubt very much that they were talking about Greek god figures. They just dreamed about things that Jung interpreted as Greek gods.

[ippy]

Never underestimate the power of the human brain to produce illusion.

I don't.

But some of the illusions have things in common when people don't share religions/cultures or even have a belief.

With the the tunnel in NDE I can see that a lack of oxygen could be an explanation,  but I find it harder to explain why people have very similar " illusions" if they don't live in the same part of the world or share the same religion and they are having the same illusions without some reasonable reason. ( like a lack of oxygen)

Another explainable one is  faces in pictures of nature, which could be  the brains attempt to make sense of patterns, this I get.

But not all experiences.

Just saying it's all the brains ability to produce illusion is just a bit of a pat answer really.

Not sure it's always the answer.

Rose have you ever wondered why these catholics that have visions of religious figures never have a vision of Mohammed, it doesn't happen, it's usually Jesus or Mary, could that be telling you something?

ippy

Why would Christians dream of Gnostic, Alchemic and paganesque type symbolisms?

They're all supposed religious figures of one kind or another, come to that never heard of visa versa with a Muslim, say he or she saw Mary.

ippy

Sorry, I forgot to say that they had no knowledge of such things and so could not have occurred from things they had consciously acquired.

I was also going to say, but I can't for the life of me find the quote, that when Jung went to Africa around the 1920's he asked about their dreams. Some had Greek god figures in them and when Jung inquired if they knew what they were they said they hadn't a clue. How could such a thing come about if they had never had any previous conscious encounter with the myths?

In other words these visions are all in the mind, if there were any truth/reality, in this religion/visions stuff there would be cross pollination, the fact there isn't?

ippy   

[ippy]

I had a dream this morning; my old working partner and I were putting up a few cupboards in, I've no idea who's kitchen and they were having the railway brought up to the back door of the house, it gets better, the rails had to be at least 4 feet up and I was arguing with my partner about the strength of the breeze blocks he wanted to use and I was pointing out to him that they wouldn't be able to support the weight of a fully loaded railway train; all the way up to the back kitchen door, it was very real at the time.

When you think about it there's a lot of people having the trains pulling up to their back doors these days and a lot of people jumping on when they stop, so that can do their commute to work? Why the 4 foot up? 

Point is Rhi dreams, mine was very real at the time and I'm in my seventies, youngsters and imagination? Lot more of it when any of us are youngsters.   

Imagination.

ippy

P S I really did have that dream this morning, where on Earth did all that lot come from?

Firstly, the emotional content of the dream should be noted. How did you feel in the dream. Secondly, what else was there, if anything; things in the background, and so forth.

Have you had dreams like this before? And nothing can really be said about it until a whole series of dreams are analysed, but may be your missing being at work and useful, and all that(?).

 I can tell you my wife and I had a good laugh about it.

I'm looking forward to seeing my working partner soon to find out why he thought breeze blocks would be strong enough; he should know better than that?

My wife has her A levels in psychology,  my niece is a Dr of psychology and so between them they say the current thinking on this subject is that crudly it's the brain clearing it's self of unwanted rubbish, I have no idea, except dreams like that are not a bother to me in fact they're rather funny.

ippy

[Rhiannon]

Whenever I dream of being 'at home' I'm never in this house, I'm in the house that I lived in ten years ago. Which speaks volumes about my life.