Hell-fire

[Hope]

Why did God invent that rule?

He invented the rule that those who choose to separate themselves from him during their lifetime get to remain separated from him in the after life in order to honour their freedom of choice.

[wigginhall]

AAH SOOO YOU believe there is a limit to God then if we can be seperate from Him, eh ?

Yes, it suggests that there is a reality where God does not exist, or there is a boundary between reality-with-God and reality-without-God.  Furthermore, this depends on you.   This is quite odd really, as it suggests that the presence/absence of God is controlled by humans.   Hmm.

However, I doubt if it's really as thought out as that. 

[jeremyp]

Why did God invent that rule?

He invented the rule that those who choose to separate themselves from him during their lifetime get to remain separated from him in the after life in order to honour their freedom of choice.

But why make them be separated from him in the afterlife in a lake of fire?

Also, what if they change their minds in the afterlife?

[floo]

The 'lake of fire for all eternity' concept is of course totally crazy, fire would burn up a human body pdq!

[Hope]

By why make them be separated from him in the afterlife in a lake of fire?

I understand that that reflects a Jewish understanding (possibly pictorial/allegorical)

Also, what if they change their minds in the afterlife?

Will they be in a position to do this?  Is there any evidence that any belief in an afterlife even allows for a human-esque choice after the end of one's earthly life?

This smacks of people here being insecure over their choice during this life.

[jeremyp]

By why make them be separated from him in the afterlife in a lake of fire?

I understand that that reflects a Jewish understanding (possibly pictorial/allegorical)

So you don't think it is literally true? Why does Sassy — also a Christian?

Also, what if they change their minds in the afterlife?

Will they be in a position to do this?

Christianity is based on the premise that you can change your mind and God won't hold your earlier decision against you. Why would that stop just because you are dead?

[Hope]

So you don't think it is literally true? Why does Sassy — also a Christian?

For one thing, separation from God doesn't actually need a literal lake of fire; secondly, as a result of reading a number of mainstream commentaries over the years and hearing several sermons on this subject, it would appear to me that the 'lake of fire' idea is one of a number of Jewish literary devices that are often used within allegorical passages in Jewish literature.  One has to remember that with Matthew and John, especially, having a high degree of Jewish audience, they can still be categorised in this way.

Christianity is based on the premise that you can change your mind and God won't hold your earlier decision against you. Why would that stop just because you are dead?

As far as I am aware, choices need a mind to make and action them.  As far as I am aware, it is our soul or spirit that lives for ever, not our bodies and minds.

[wigginhall]

By why make them be separated from him in the afterlife in a lake of fire?

I understand that that reflects a Jewish understanding (possibly pictorial/allegorical)

So you don't think it is literally true? Why does Sassy — also a Christian?

Also, what if they change their minds in the afterlife?

Will they be in a position to do this?

Christianity is based on the premise that you can change your mind and God won't hold your earlier decision against you. Why would that stop just because you are dead?

Because that would deprive the various churches of power.  They want to blackmail you into thinking that you have one chance in this life, and if you don't take that, you have blown it, since you can't change your mind after death.   It gives them power over you - if you have an infinite amount of time to change your mind, they have none.

[jeremyp]

As far as I am aware, it is our soul or spirit that lives for ever, not our bodies and minds.

That's an interesting idea that I've not heard before.  If our minds die when we die, in what sense can eternal life be considered life?

[floo]

The extreme fundamentalist Christians dine out on their faith being a fire insurance policy. Get 'saved' and you don't burn in hell!

[Shaker]

As far as I am aware, it is our soul or spirit that lives for ever, not our bodies and minds.

Except of course that you're not aware of this in any way whatsoever. It may well, for reasons best known to yourself, be a belief that you hold; doubtless it is. But any awareness is simply awareness of the fact that this is a belief that you hold, not of the truth of the content of that belief.

So the phrase "as far as I am aware" was used quite incorrectly, where "I believe that ..." or "I think that ..." or "It's my opinion that ..." would have been accurate.

[Hope]

Except of course that you're not aware of this in any way whatsoever. It may well, for reasons best known to yourself, be a belief that you hold; doubtless it is. But any awareness is simply awareness of the fact that this is a belief that you hold, not of the truth of the content of that belief.

I realise that you don't regard the Bible as evidence for much, but it can be used as internal context for what other parts of the Bible teach.  As such, there are a number of passages that suggest that the body and mind will be replaced with a new one, or that it is the sould that lives on into eternity.  So, no, I am not "not aware of this in any way whatsoever".   Rather, I am using my mental abilities to discern what the Bible as a whoe say about this and other topics.

Using one's mental abilities in this way doesn't necessitate believing what the Bible says; its simply a form of literary criticism - something that you may or may not really understand.

So the phrase "as far as I am aware" was used quite incorrectly, where "I believe that ..." or "I think that ..." or "It's my opinion that ..." would have been accurate.

That might be your opinion, but it also suggests that you haven't done that much critical study of the Biblical material.

[Shaker]

I realise that you don't regard the Bible as evidence for much

Correct. I don't; as I am an evidentialist and you are not, the discussion can stop right there. I really don't give two shiny shites about "context", the perennial refuge of the invariably religious defenders of the indefensible. I care about what we can know to be true, and as usual you're coming woefully - often amusingly but never less than pathetically - short. The rest of your pompous bloviating waffle was, as ever, a waste of time to write and a waste of time to read.

[jeremyp]

That might be your opinion, but it also suggests that you haven't done that much critical study of the Biblical material.

I don't think you have done any critical study of the Bible.

[ad_orientem]

AAH SOOO YOU believe there is a limit to God then if we can be seperate from Him, eh ?

I've always said, and this is what we believe in the East, that hell is not seperation from God. Even those in hell are in God's presence for nothing can exist apart from God.

[ad_orientem]

So you don't think it is literally true? Why does Sassy — also a Christian?

For one thing, separation from God doesn't actually need a literal lake of fire; secondly, as a result of reading a number of mainstream commentaries over the years and hearing several sermons on this subject, it would appear to me that the 'lake of fire' idea is one of a number of Jewish literary devices that are often used within allegorical passages in Jewish literature.  One has to remember that with Matthew and John, especially, having a high degree of Jewish audience, they can still be categorised in this way.

Christianity is based on the premise that you can change your mind and God won't hold your earlier decision against you. Why would that stop just because you are dead?

As far as I am aware, choices need a mind to make and action them.  As far as I am aware, it is our soul or spirit that lives for ever, not our bodies and minds.

What about the resurrection.

[Leonard James]

As far as I am aware, choices need a mind to make and action them.  As far as I am aware, it is our soul or spirit that lives for ever, not our bodies and minds.

So will your soul/spirit be robot-like, unable to choose its actions?

[trippymonkey]

AAH SOOO YOU believe there is a limit to God then if we can be seperate from Him, eh ?

I've always said, and this is what we believe in the East, that hell is not seperation from God. Even those in hell are in God's presence for nothing can exist apart from God.

EXACTLY. I'm a bit of a Hindu myself so I'm well aware of eastern thought which, in many way, to me anyway, seems a bit more honest.

Nick

[jakswan]

How many Christians on this forum believe that all the 'unsaved' are off to 'the burny-burny place' when they die? (I like that description Rhiannon )

You don't die in hell... you exist in the lake of fire for ever separated from God and the rest of the human race.

I couldn't be in heaven if there was one person in a lake of fire.

[jakswan]

a bit of a fixation I would say. why not search the scriptures?

Its not a fixation of hell its fixation that people actually believe justice is done by infinite punishment, it brings about more suffering than Hitler, Islamic State, etc.

[trippymonkey]

WELL EXACTLY.
How could you Even a so-called enemy !!!
God is supposed to be BETTER than us & yet certain religions make God the worst horrendous bastard that ever existed.

Who would want to 'live' forever with THAT, eh ?!!?!?!?

[Sassy]

AAH SOOO YOU believe there is a limit to God then if we can be seperate from Him, eh ?

We live now in the presence of God and we can call on him to help us.
He has warned us of the things to come but do you outside faith know Gods presence. There is a difference between being able to find him and never being able to find him because you chose to lock him out of your world and life.


So God is not limited.... Death has come to those who do not obey him or accept his free gift of forgiveness and eternal life with him.

Now you can seek him whilst he can be found. Once in hell or in the lake of fire he will not be found by those there. Yes he will still be everywhere but those in that place are there for eternity.

[Hope]

Correct. I don't; as I am an evidentialist and you are not, the discussion can stop right there. I really don't give two shiny shites about "context", the perennial refuge of the invariably religious defenders of the indefensible.

Good to know that you dismiss what even scientists rely on; the context within which an experiment occurs is very important in terms of repeatability, and validity.  As such its the perennial refuge of all studies, research and - effectively, life.

[trippymonkey]

We live now in the presence of God and we can call on him to help us.
He has warned us of the things to come but do you outside faith know Gods presence. There is a difference between being able to find him and never being able to find him because you chose to lock him out of your world and life.

So God is not limited.... Death has come to those who do not obey him or accept his free gift of forgiveness and eternal life with him.

Now you can seek him whilst he can be found. Once in hell or in the lake of fire he will not be found by those there. Yes he will still be everywhere but those in that place are there for eternity.



What a contradiction. He is everywhere but not for certain others.
FREE GIFT ?!?!? Are you serious ??
I'm not an 'outside faith' BTW It's soooo obvious ONLY Christians matter to you, maybe only CERTAIN brands of Christians too, eh

[Hope]

So will your soul/spirit be robot-like, unable to choose its actions?

No Len, it won't be.  It will have made that decision/choice whilst here on earth.